Query regarding technique to thicken a branch from Peter Tea

Adair M

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I'm with Oso here and I think this is key here.
I also think that the reason why many defoliate the escape branches/leader is to reduce shading on the main tree. Not to reduce (or maximize) the growth/thickening of the branch/trunk.

And mature bonsai (life Adair's pine) may act differently because they are pot bound. That's why we plant trees in tiny pots right? reduce/constrain/minimize their growth...

Now, I'm no expert. Far from it. But I do have a brain and a background in Biology... It seems illogical that reducing the branches on the leader will increase its thickening, since we are essentially removing lots of terminal buds, all contributing for the growth of that brach.

Also, before we even think about competition, we need to show that resources are limiting (which is seldom the case with our bonsai I'd assume). Otherwise there is no competition. What would they be competing for?

my two pence
Nice try! But no chicken dinner:confused:

My tree is not pot bound. Sure, it’s in a bonsai pot, but it’s been regularly repotted over the past three or four years. It’s been moved from it’s “everyday” pot, to a show pot, then back to the “everyday”, and back into the current show pot. The growth of the foliage over those years has been pretty much the same, actually increasing in twig count, and needle density. There is more “leaf surface” now than there ever has been during my time of ownership. Yet the trunk hasn’t fattened, nor have most of the branches. How do I know? I wired most of the larger branches over 4 years ago. I’m just now removing that wire. But, it hasn’t cut in! Some of the smaller branches showed some wire scars, but none of the larger ones.

How can this be?

Decandling. I fertilizer heavily in the seypring. The tree grows vigorous new spring candles, and strong candles. Then, in early July, I cut them all off.

You see, the tree expended a lot of energy producing new solar receptors to make food for future growth. While new needles are growing, they use more energy than they produce. It’s during the second half of the summer and fall when they produce more food than they consume. That’s when the wood is put on the trunk. If you watch wired branches carefully, you will see that they get wire scars faster in the fall that other seasons.

Now, by decandling, I’ve just removed all those expensive new shoots and needles! The tree has no choice but to try and replace them as quickly as possible! Summer’s running out! And so it does. By October, it has produced new shoots there the old ones had been. Just in time to go dormant! The tree spent what energy it had to make that second set of shoots and needles. And just as they started to mature, it’s time to shut down for the winter. They never got a chance to collect and store excess energy on the form of wood!

So, little if any trunk thickening. Little if any old wound callous formation. The tree simply had more important this to do. Build photoreceptors!
 

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Fascinating thread and great to read the many different opinions. I've read it twice now and each "camp" has put up good cases for each scenario. Could it be that different species will react in different ways? One may develop trunk thickness with a single leader on a sacrifice branch with all side shoots removed while another will develop trunk thickness with a sacrifice branch with loads of side branches? I'd like to have two trees at the same stage of development that I could train with the different techniques and see which grows better and develops thicker trunks.

I used to grow standard fuschias and the fastest way to grow the standard to the height I wanted, was to select a single leader, remove all side branches and feed the hell out if it. As it grew, I removed any side shoots that appeared - just focussing all energy and growth into that growing tip. As it grew taller, the trunk grew thicker. When it got to the height I wanted, I pinched out the top and started to develop the head - now I wanted branching. Over the next growing period, I let each shoot grow out to 6-8 leaves and pinched back to 2, rinse and repeat until I got the head the size that I wanted. The point here, is that as I developed the head, the fuschia was producing more foliage mass - but the trunk didn't grow any thicker, in the end I had I stake it. Doesn't this support the single leader with no side branching theory?
 

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Fascinating thread and great to read the many different opinions. I've read it twice now and each "camp" has put up good cases for each scenario. Could it be that different species will react in different ways? One may develop trunk thickness with a single leader on a sacrifice branch with all side shoots removed while another will develop trunk thickness with a sacrifice branch with loads of side branches? I'd like to have two trees at the same stage of development that I could train with the different techniques and see which grows better and develops thicker trunks.

I used to grow standard fuschias and the fastest way to grow the standard to the height I wanted, was to select a single leader, remove all side branches and feed the hell out if it. As it grew, I removed any side shoots that appeared - just focussing all energy and growth into that growing tip. As it grew taller, the trunk grew thicker. When it got to the height I wanted, I pinched out the top and started to develop the head - now I wanted branching. Over the next growing period, I let each shoot grow out to 6-8 leaves and pinched back to 2, rinse and repeat until I got the head the size that I wanted. The point here, is that as I developed the head, the fuschia was producing more foliage mass - but the trunk didn't grow any thicker, in the end I had I stake it. Doesn't this support the single leader with no side branching theory?

Correct it does! The two camp discussion is Interesting to a point. Opinions do vary, however the facts remain the same.
Plants respond to the techniques applied to them based on how those techniques affect their balance of Hormones, Sugars, Water, Photosynthesis etc.
As previously stated in this thread two key hormones to consider in this discussion are Auxin and Cytokinin. Cutting off apical buds reduces the amount of Auxin produced, lowering the branch reduces the amount of Auxin produced. When the amount of auxin is lessened the hormone Cytokinin has more control. Auxin influences bigger trunk and more root growth. Cytokinin influences back budding and lateral growth. Where the sugar is produced and used influences the result.
Letting an apical leader grow to thicken a trunk or branch is the correct technique to get that response. Bigger apical buds, more auxin, more sugars used in that way. Also more root growth. ( Development) More development occurs towards the end of the growing season as other needs have been met and the excess of sugars occur. For example, root recovery from repotting or a hard winter.
Cutting off or reducing the number of apical buds, lowering the branch reduces the amount of Auxin allowing for more influence of Cytokinin in producing backbuds and lateral growth. ( Refinement )
Reducing strong areas, redirects the sugars to weaker areas creating better balance. ( Refinement)
Someone mention the purpose of keeping trees in pots is to hinder or restrict their growth. Not really! For Bonsai to be effective we must apply Bonsai techniques regularily to prune and regenerate new root growth and to prune and regenerate foliage. Actually the challenge is to create and maintain a healthy rootball and healthy foliage that allows the tree to live in those conditions for hundreds of years. Correct techniques at the proper time to influence a balanced healthy tree.
 

0soyoung

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Reducing strong areas, redirects the sugars to weaker areas
Reducing sugar production in strong areas of a tree is not "redirecting" the sugars.
Someone mention the purpose of keeping trees in pots is to hinder or restrict their growth.
I agree, but it is interesting that the foliage is smaller on many species the smaller the tree: horse chestnuts, many (most/all) maples for examples. It is natural to assume it has something to with roots. With these species, leaves seem to get larger the farther they are away from the roots. Research on apical dominance and bud suppression suggest another hormone produced in the roots, strigolactone, may be at play
 
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Nice try! But no chicken dinner:confused:

My tree is not pot bound. Sure, it’s in a bonsai pot, but it’s been regularly repotted over the past three or four years. It’s been moved from it’s “everyday” pot, to a show pot, then back to the “everyday”, and back into the current show pot. The growth of the foliage over those years has been pretty much the same, actually increasing in twig count, and needle density. There is more “leaf surface” now than there ever has been during my time of ownership. Yet the trunk hasn’t fattened, nor have most of the branches. How do I know? I wired most of the larger branches over 4 years ago. I’m just now removing that wire. But, it hasn’t cut in! Some of the smaller branches showed some wire scars, but none of the larger ones.

How can this be?

Decandling. I fertilizer heavily in the seypring. The tree grows vigorous new spring candles, and strong candles. Then, in early July, I cut them all off.

You see, the tree expended a lot of energy producing new solar receptors to make food for future growth. While new needles are growing, they use more energy than they produce. It’s during the second half of the summer and fall when they produce more food than they consume. That’s when the wood is put on the trunk. If you watch wired branches carefully, you will see that they get wire scars faster in the fall that other seasons.

Now, by decandling, I’ve just removed all those expensive new shoots and needles! The tree has no choice but to try and replace them as quickly as possible! Summer’s running out! And so it does. By October, it has produced new shoots there the old ones had been. Just in time to go dormant! The tree spent what energy it had to make that second set of shoots and needles. And just as they started to mature, it’s time to shut down for the winter. They never got a chance to collect and store excess energy on the form of wood!

So, little if any trunk thickening. Little if any old wound callous formation. The tree simply had more important this to do. Build photoreceptors!

Well... no chicken dinner either... It may not be pot bound, but it's bounded by a pot. I'm sure that you will agree that sticking a tree in a pot will constrain its growth. I can show you pictures... but I am sure you won't need.

You are taking about refining stages. Needle or leaf density maybe higher but size is also probably smaller. What about total leaf area? probably similar, not larger.
More... the trunk had not fattened because you are always cutting the back the growth. As you say " the tree simply had more important things to do". And, in the end, you essentially agree that if you prune, you reduce growth and thickening.
 
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Someone mention the purpose of keeping trees in pots is to hinder or restrict their growth. Not really! For Bonsai to be effective we must apply Bonsai techniques regularily to prune and regenerate new root growth and to prune and regenerate foliage. Actually the challenge is to create and maintain a healthy rootball and healthy foliage that allows the tree to live in those conditions for hundreds of years. Correct techniques at the proper time to influence a balanced healthy tree.


Well one of the most common and fundamental bonsai techniques is to put trees in small pots ;) I've got 2 trident maples, grown from seed, collected at the same time, put to grow at the same time. One year ago, one was put in a smaller pot (my test tree). Growth has been 3 times less and leafs are probably 1/6th the size of the one in the larger pot. I can show you pics if you want.

Correct it does! The two camp discussion is Interesting to a point. Opinions do vary, however the facts remain the same.
Plants respond to the techniques applied to them based on how those techniques affect their balance of Hormones, Sugars, Water, Photosynthesis etc.
As previously stated in this thread two key hormones to consider in this discussion are Auxin and Cytokinin. Cutting off apical buds reduces the amount of Auxin produced, lowering the branch reduces the amount of Auxin produced. When the amount of auxin is lessened the hormone Cytokinin has more control. Auxin influences bigger trunk and more root growth. Cytokinin influences back budding and lateral growth. Where the sugar is produced and used influences the result.
Letting an apical leader grow to thicken a trunk or branch is the correct technique to get that response. Bigger apical buds, more auxin, more sugars used in that way. Also more root growth. ( Development) More development occurs towards the end of the growing season as other needs have been met and the excess of sugars occur. For example, root recovery from repotting or a hard winter.
Cutting off or reducing the number of apical buds, lowering the branch reduces the amount of Auxin allowing for more influence of Cytokinin in producing backbuds and lateral growth. ( Refinement )

Nicely put and essentially you are saying that:
1. "Cutting off apical buds reduces the amount of Auxin produced"
2. "Auxin influences bigger trunk and more root growth" and
3 "Letting an apical leader grow to thicken a trunk or branch is the correct technique to get that response"

That's exactly right. And that is why if we cut or trim branches we get potentially lesser (not greater) trunk thickening. Apical buds are all over the tree, not just in leader. They are present in all shoots.
 

Adair M

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Apical buds are all over the tree, not just in leader. They are present in all shoots.
True, but depending upon the species of tree, some apical buds are more dominant than others.

Pine trees tend to have a single central dominate bud. It’s the highest point of the tree. The auxin it produces signals the tree to send more food and energy to it relative to the other branches and shoots. In fact, it suppresses the growth of other branches that could possibly compete with it for dominance. This causes the tree to produce wood (trunk) to support it. The tree will thicken all the wood from the roots up the trunk to that topmost bud. That is why trunks are thicker than branches. They are programmed in their DNA to grow this way. They want to grow taller than their neighbor to reach the light. Not wider, not denser, taller. Being in a forest is their natural habitat. They have to out grow their neighbor to survive. Which means they have to grow tall. Which means they need a strong trunk. Which is why the single dominant apical growth method works well for them.

When we make stand alone bonsai out of them, we are forcing them to grow in ways that are unnatural to a forest pine.

But, getting back to the point, to build TRUNK girth, you can choose to use the built in programming in their DNA to grow tall and build a strong trunk, or you can fight against it.

The professional growers choose to use the tree’s natural strength to build massive trunks as quickly as possible.

You are correct in saying that growing in the ground or a large grow box puts on wood faster than in a bonsai pot. It is the combination of fast growing roots and fast growing apex that fattens trunks. Bonsai pots do restrict root growth. And thus aid in refinement, not “growth”.
 

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Well one of the most common and fundamental bonsai techniques is to put trees in small pots ;) I've got 2 trident maples, grown from seed, collected at the same time, put to grow at the same time. One year ago, one was put in a smaller pot (my test tree). Growth has been 3 times less and leafs are probably 1/6th the size of the one in the larger pot. I can show you pics i

( Sorry somehow i embedded my response in the Post):eek:

Rivers Edge Bonsai says!;)
I agree with what you have said. Traditionally that has been used as a primary technique to influence growth. I just question the statement that it is the purpose of putting a tree in a bonsai pot. I do understand why you question what i said. :cool:

Your test? Two trees grown from seeds which will have different genetics can hardly be compared for growth rate. Even if produced by the same plant. When i plant Trident maples, some grow faster and slower than others right from the outset. Some are large and vigorous, some are stunted. Some catch up others fall back. Growth rate from seed to seed varies. Actually i check carefully for "sports". It is amazing the range of form and size within one species. i am particularly interested in the small internode , small leaf sports that occur from the same group of collected seeds.

Bonsai practitioners understand that the tree continues to live and grow because it's growth is not restricted by the pot. The roots are trimmed to allow regeneration and the foliage is trimmed to create ramification and control size. If this was not done you would have a dead tree that outgrew its pot.

Yes, the size of the container can influence the growth.
The growth is also influenced by water, fertilizer, sun, soil mix, temperature etc.
The question is, whether that is the purpose of a Bonsai pot. If that is all one does, put the tree in a bonsai pot, then the tree will not refine itself nor keep the desired shape or size.

Bonsai size is restricted primarily by selective pruning and repotting techniques. The size of a Bonsai can be restricted and the tree can be refined in a large pot or grow box if one chooses. ( assuming one has reasonable control over the other variables)

I believe Bonsai Pots are primarily for display purposes. I also believe they are not required to restrict growth, that can be done with Bonsai techniques and other containers before they are put in a small pot. In fact, many professionals recommend using larger containers for development and only reducing size when progressing with last stages of refinement. This produces more vigor and thus more opportunity for development and refinement techniques over a shorter period of time. Easier to do more work on a stronger plant without setting it back too much. Bonsai display pots are the final stage and the smallest suitable are used temporarily for show purposes. The valuable trees are then placed back in larger quarters to maintain optimum health. Then after a period of years, often placed in larger containers to regain vigor and grow out before restyling.
 
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Adair M

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Frank, all good points! Back in the day, it was thought that the way to control growth (make a bonsai) was to pot the tree in a small pot, and withhold water and fertilizer to restrain growth.

Now, we use good soil, water freely, and fertilize normally if not heavily!
 

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Does this theory that elimination of side branches is best for thickening mean that the quickest way to develop primary trunk girth on material is to eliminate all side branches besides those selected as leaders?

Why or why not?
 

Adair M

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Does this theory that elimination of side branches is best for thickening mean that the quickest way to develop primary trunk girth on material is to eliminate all side branches besides those selected as leaders?

Why or why not?
Yes, it does. Why or why not? It’s not necessary to repeat all the reasons, they are posted already in this thread. See my previous posts, those by Riversedgebonsai, Wm Valavanis, and fvilob963 (or whatever his name is). Also, Peter Tea’s blog has the information that prompted this thread.

While we are on this subject, a sacrifice to fatten a trunk doesn’t really work unless that sacrifice is the tallest (highest) point of the tree. I’ve seen many people wanting to thicken the lower trunk. To either induce taper or fix a reverse taper issue. So, they try growing out a branch and let it run. If it runs horizontal, and never gets to be the tallest, it never really fattens the trunk lower down. If, however, that same branch was staked up and it becomes the tallest point, the tree will figure out that this branch should be the leader. And it will start putting out more wood on the branch and the portion of the lower trunk that is influenced by the hormones produced in that branch (new leader).
 

KingJades

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Yes, it does. Why or why not? It’s not necessary to repeat all the reasons, they are posted already in this thread. See my previous posts, those by Riversedgebonsai, Wm Valavanis, and fvilob963 (or whatever his name is). Also, Peter Tea’s blog has the information that prompted this thread.

While we are on this subject, a sacrifice to fatten a trunk doesn’t really work unless that sacrifice is the tallest (highest) point of the tree. I’ve seen many people wanting to thicken the lower trunk. To either induce taper or fix a reverse taper issue. So, they try growing out a branch and let it run. If it runs horizontal, and never gets to be the tallest, it never really fattens the trunk lower down. If, however, that same branch was staked up and it becomes the tallest point, the tree will figure out that this branch should be the leader. And it will start putting out more wood on the branch and the portion of the lower trunk that is influenced by the hormones produced in that branch (new leader).

Thank you!

In this case, the "why" was less about the mechanism (which has been discussed here at length) and more about whether that technique makes strategic sense.

Should we be doing that? I think a lot of people (including me) have been leaving them, but maybe we can be using better techniques.
 

papymandarin

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wel i don't really see the problem, it works very well when you want to fatten as much and as quickly as possible the section the branch is attached to, nothing more nothing less, if your goal is different, use a different technique...
 

KingJades

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Thank you for your help as I digest this learning.

OK, now that I have more time, here is an an illustration of what I was asking. I picked a dorky tree since we see the side branches easily.

Let's say we have this chinese elm that we're developing and we need trunk girth at the base, so we plant it in the ground.
Let's say we don't care about keeping any of the branches in the final design, so they will either help us to grow the tree or not.

Are we saying that the first step this person should be doing is to remove all of the side branches that won't be in the design and instead push all of the growth into the apical growth,
because putting all growth into the apex will thicken the tree faster than keeping the side branches on and growing throughout the process?

1527592950322.png

This seems best based on the results of this discussion, but I don't see people recommending that in large numbers. The general response is "let it grow and don't prune to thicken", not "cut off all of the branches and grow the apex wild, while pruning all side branches to direct growth into the top".
 
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papymandarin

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well when we say remove side branches, it's side branches of the sacrifice branch, not the whole tree. Secondly the technique is likely not to give good result in this tree, because remember that the technique will indeed give you fattening but not taper, you don't want your trunk to have a uniform girth from base to top. Girth is given by free growth, taper by cutting back and growing a new leader that you will let fatten a little less and so on, that's clip and grow, and you should worry about your definitives branches after you have at least the base of the correct girth/shape, not after. Wanting a bigger base for this tree means basically going back to start: let grow everything till the base is fat enough, then cut back the trunk and grow it again for movement and taper. The technique of the sacrifice branche in a tree like this is more suitable when you need to correct the girth of a given branch (for instance a lower branch not fat enough compared to upper ones), branch section or an apex in construction.
 
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Oso, it seems logical that foliage mass would thicken branches, but it doesn't work that way. It is terminal tip growth that puts on the girth!

You see, in the spring the tree uses its stored sugars to create the new leaves and stems. It's not until the growth phase is over that the tree begins to create more sugars than it consumes. So little thickening occurs on the old wood during spring. Fall is when you see branches fattening up! By that time the tree is storing excess sugars for the following spring.

Now, why does terminal growth work better than ramification? Terminal tips produce MORE auxins than ramification. [emphasis added]

You see, the tree expended a lot of energy producing new solar receptors to make food for future growth. While new needles are growing, they use more energy than they produce. It’s during the second half of the summer and fall when they produce more food than they consume. That’s when the wood is put on the trunk. If you watch wired branches carefully, you will see that they get wire scars faster in the fall that other seasons.

From what i understood from the Mirai videos, at least for Maples fall is indeed when branches are thickening up because the trees are storing sugars and carbs (lowering freezing temp for winter) which leads to vascular growth (i.e. "produce more food than they consume", as you put it).

However, don't all of the solar panels on tree contribute to the manufacturing of sugars and carbs to be stored? (As an aside, this is what informs our fall pruning decisions when deciding whether secondary branches are in 'development' and need to be allowed to thicken, or are in 'refinement' and don't need to be allowed to thicken).

It seems like you're saying the auxin promotes the manufacturing of sugars and carbs (or the storage of it?) more than the solar panels themselves do.

Just trying to get some clarification here, i'm only about 6 months into my bonsai career :)
 

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well when we say remove side branches, it's side branches of the sacrifice branch, not the whole tree. Secondly the technique is likely not to give good result in this tree, because remember that the technique will indeed give you fattening but not taper, you don't want your trunk to have a uniform girth from base to top. Girth is given by free growth, taper by cutting back and growing a new leader that you will let fatten a little less and so on, that's clip and grow, and you should worry about your definitives branches after you have at least the base of the correct girth/shape, not after. Wanting a bigger base for this tree means basically going back to start: let grow everything till the base is fat enough, then cut back the trunk and grow it again for movement and taper. The technique of the sacrifice branche in a tree like this is more suitable when you need to correct the girth of a given branch (for instance a lower branch not fat enough compared to upper ones), branch section or an apex in construction.

Thank you for the clarification. This was consistent with my understanding from before.
 

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From what i understood from the Mirai videos, at least for Maples fall is indeed when branches are thickening up because the trees are storing sugars and carbs (lowering freezing temp for winter) which leads to vascular growth (i.e. "produce more food than they consume", as you put it).

However, don't all of the solar panels on tree contribute to the manufacturing of sugars and carbs to be stored? (As an aside, this is what informs our fall pruning decisions when deciding whether secondary branches are in 'development' and need to be allowed to thicken, or are in 'refinement' and don't need to be allowed to thicken).

It seems like you're saying the auxin promotes the manufacturing of sugars and carbs (or the storage of it?) more than the solar panels themselves do.

Just trying to get some clarification here, i'm only about 6 months into my bonsai career :)
Derek, I’m not a botanist, and don’t even pretend to be one. The role of auxin is very complicated, but amongst other things it directs the tree’s growth. This is largely a spring time activity. The new growing tips produce auxin, and that I turn stimulates root growth.

In the fall, the growth phase is over, and the tree is storing the sugars, and using the food it created. Perhaps another hormone is in control of this process.

I’ve noticed that fall is when my wires tend to cut in. Which means the branch is thickening.

I don’t know the exact mechanism of what’s happening (this is where we need a botanist). Is it the cells are created during spring growth and then expand in the fall? Are more cells created in the fall? Both? Neither? I don’t know. This is the kind of information that @osoyoung excelled at!

All I know is twigs, branches and trunks thicken faster in the late summer and fall. Watch your wire, if you are trying to avoid wire scars. Cutting in can happen quickly in the early fall.
 
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