Question regarding roots fusion

[Shun]

Hello guys.. I airlayered a Kotohime Acer P. and wanted to know in order to develop the Ebihara nebari on these trees should I leave the roots covered in soil or partially exposed in order to make them fuse together?

I often read and hear people say that to get the roots to thicken and lignify you should leave them exposed but my gut tells me to cover with soil and a layer of sphagnmum moss in order to get as much of surface roots I can to get that nice surrounding nebari..

What is the correct way to do it.. ?

If I leave it covered when and how should I expose the nebari?

I`m new to the hobby so my questions are simple but I do not know it so Im asking.. hehehe

Thanks!

 

[Adair M]

Hello guys.. I airlayered a Kotohime Acer P. and wanted to know in order to develop the Ebihara nebari on these trees should I leave the roots covered in soil or partially exposed in order to make them fuse together?

I often read and hear people say that to get the roots to thicken and lignify you should leave them exposed but my gut tells me to cover with soil and a layer of sphagnmum moss in order to get as much of surface roots I can to get that nice surrounding nebari..

What is the correct way to do it.. ?

If I leave it covered when and how should I expose the nebari?

I`m new to the hobby so my questions are simple but I do not know it so Im asking.. hehehe

Thanks!

See MarkyScott’s most excellent thread “Ebihara Maples”.

The short answer is screw the base of the trunk to a board, and bury under about 2 inches of soil.

 

[ysrgrathe]

Yes, cover them! It's counterproductive to expose them too early.

 

[Dav4]

Cover the roots!!

 

[sorce]

I'm on a real kick.

How close is Ebihara's Climate to South of Brazil?

Different Hemispheres entirely.

Just saying.

For me....2inches of soil is a lot....and you run the risk of 2inches worth of different new planes to cut off and heal up.

Eeew.

It really depends on how often you water...
Or further...
What you are willing to do to create a pancake Nebari on one plane, as fast as possible, with the best health of the tree in mind...

Is that enough of a primer?

Up here, a quarter inch of sphagnum will keep sifted 8822 from drying at the surface, which is really all you need to keep them surface roots actively growing.

But then sphagnum gives the roots the opportunity to grow up and get tangled in, and if you go to remove the sphagnum, you're going to lose root tips.

So why not use something else?

Like black plastic, covered in white tee to keep cool. Or a hundred other things that don't allow for all the downfalls of more of anything.

If we lift a pot out of a drip tray, and observe the roots growing out of drainage holes, we see the proof that we need merely dark and moist to keep those roots growing.

The benefits of using something the roots can't grow into are huge.

Daily, weekly, as neededly, you can lift it up and direct your root tips.

Ebihara will have you cut them off later.

Sure, We know we can.

But we also know the less we cut the more stuff grows....

So don't go getting contradictory on me saying since we can....we should.

There IS ALWAYS a better way.

New real new real.

We know trees want to grow surface roots.
All you really need to do is keep the surface moist.

It's freaking blasphemy to speak against thinking outside the box on a Ebihara thread.
For me, any clinging to Ebihara should come with a full on understanding that Ebihara is the King Of OTB.
The epitome.

I feel he would be ashamed if we didn't move forward this method with techniques better suited to success, especially in regards to completely different climates!
(In my mind, Brazil is Humid, though you may be South enough to be more moderate?)

People going hate it.....

The Sorcihara technique.

Its some Smoke, some Ebi, some every, etc.

A tile doesn't drain but from the sides.
Same as my baskets.

Smoke ties trees directly to bases of pots.
You can in my baskets.

Air pruned roots at the edges make for more fine interior roots, the ones the say are the ones that do the fusing.

So you take a flat bottom drainless colander like my baskets.
Cut your tree up to the plane you want to use.
Tie it down.
And cover it with Only as much soil as you want your final pot to be deep.

And use any number of 6.7 thousand ways to keep the surface and soil moist.

Ten Constantly peeing red eye tree frogs?

If the shit works!

The tighter the plane you have them growing in, the less you have to cut off later and the easier they will properly direct themselves.

The only question is how wide to make the basket.
How wide is the trunk?
How long do the current roots run?

Keep thinking.

Sorce

 

[Anthony]

Soft wood or hardwood ?

 

[Shun]

I live in a city where we can grow most species.. some tropicals suffer a little down here because of the cold and species such as jwp dont grow well.. (we dont have jwp's in Brazil)

In my City in winter we get temps about 0-10 Celsius on average and in summer we usually get 25-30 celsius.. sometimes higher but seldomly.


I'm trying the method my way.. its a small Double trunk airlayer and Im growing it on a small pot because I live in an apartment thus my space is limited (very)

I will take some pictures to document my experience

 

[Shun]

What is OTB? Sorry some acronyms i dont undestand

 

[Adair M]

I'm on a real kick.

How close is Ebihara's Climate to South of Brazil?

Different Hemispheres entirely.

Just saying.

For me....2inches of soil is a lot....and you run the risk of 2inches worth of different new planes to cut off and heal up.

Eeew.

It really depends on how often you water...
Or further...
What you are willing to do to create a pancake Nebari on one plane, as fast as possible, with the best health of the tree in mind...

Is that enough of a primer?

Up here, a quarter inch of sphagnum will keep sifted 8822 from drying at the surface, which is really all you need to keep them surface roots actively growing.

But then sphagnum gives the roots the opportunity to grow up and get tangled in, and if you go to remove the sphagnum, you're going to lose root tips.

So why not use something else?

Like black plastic, covered in white tee to keep cool. Or a hundred other things that don't allow for all the downfalls of more of anything.

If we lift a pot out of a drip tray, and observe the roots growing out of drainage holes, we see the proof that we need merely dark and moist to keep those roots growing.

The benefits of using something the roots can't grow into are huge.

Daily, weekly, as neededly, you can lift it up and direct your root tips.

Ebihara will have you cut them off later.

Sure, We know we can.

But we also know the less we cut the more stuff grows....

So don't go getting contradictory on me saying since we can....we should.

There IS ALWAYS a better way.

New real new real.

We know trees want to grow surface roots.
All you really need to do is keep the surface moist.

It's freaking blasphemy to speak against thinking outside the box on a Ebihara thread.
For me, any clinging to Ebihara should come with a full on understanding that Ebihara is the King Of OTB.
The epitome.

I feel he would be ashamed if we didn't move forward this method with techniques better suited to success, especially in regards to completely different climates!
(In my mind, Brazil is Humid, though you may be South enough to be more moderate?)

People going hate it.....

The Sorcihara technique.

Its some Smoke, some Ebi, some every, etc.

A tile doesn't drain but from the sides.
Same as my baskets.

Smoke ties trees directly to bases of pots.
You can in my baskets.

Air pruned roots at the edges make for more fine interior roots, the ones the say are the ones that do the fusing.

So you take a flat bottom drainless colander like my baskets.
Cut your tree up to the plane you want to use.
Tie it down.
And cover it with Only as much soil as you want your final pot to be deep.

And use any number of 6.7 thousand ways to keep the surface and soil moist.

Ten Constantly peeing red eye tree frogs?

If the shit works!

The tighter the plane you have them growing in, the less you have to cut off later and the easier they will properly direct themselves.

The only question is how wide to make the basket.
How wide is the trunk?
How long do the current roots run?

Keep thinking.

Sorce

Sorce, have you done any Ebihara techniques? Have you ever created pancake nebari?

I didn’t think so.

It’s all well and good to “think outside the box”. I regularly explode people’s boxes on this forum! Several years ago, I advocated spinning wire off instead of cutting it off. That simple thing blew people’s minds!

I still advocate wiring deciduous in spring and summer, not fall/winter. People still don’t get it. I also advocate using the upward growing bud on Maples and wiring them down, rather than using the downward growing buds.

I advocated using the “half bare root repot”.

I even showed Ebihara’s nebari technique of screwing a trunk onto a board.

All these things were new to most of this forum community. But, they are all tried and tested.

This stuff you advocate? Figments of your imagination. There is SO MUCH misinformation about bonsai. Beginners hear a lot of totally contradictory stuff. Please only advise people to do things you know to be true. Not stuff you “think” should work. If you’ve tested some new technique, and you can show us the results, then fine! But until then...

 

[ysrgrathe]

Since you are repotting yearly it really isn't necessary to worry too much about "upward growing" roots. If they can't be flattened out they are removed before growing too large. Ebihara is already easily 5x faster than other techniques so there is a high burden of proof to show that something else is better. Don't let it stop you from trying, but I also think it wise to show results before advocating for an approach.

 

[sorce]

Figments of your imagination.

Kinda do....
Kinda don't feel like getting your ass right now.

Here's what I gather.

You have shared a bunch of techniques, none which are your own, yet you want to coach me about thinking outside the box?

And for some reason you still think I am ignorant enough to not have observed and/or fully thought this stuff out?

But....

Most importantly....
Even if I haven't tried these things....

How are we going to Advance if One guy waits twenty years to share an idea?

Maybe you never knew one of the requirements for thinking outside the box.....

THINKING!

Get on that, then you can come get on me.

Till THEN.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Kinda do....
Kinda don't feel like getting your ass right now.

Here's what I gather.

You have shared a bunch of techniques, none which are your own, yet you want to coach me about thinking outside the box?

And for some reason you still think I am ignorant enough to not have observed and/or fully thought this stuff out?

But....

Most importantly....
Even if I haven't tried these things....

How are we going to Advance if One guy waits twenty years to share an idea?

Maybe you never knew one of the requirements for thinking outside the box.....

THINKING!

Get on that, then you can come get on me.

Till THEN.

Sorce

No, I’m not against you thinking, or trying stuff. But don’t be telling newbies that stuff!

You are right, none of the stuff I’ve shared here is original with me. Having been doing bonsai since about 1970, I had never heard of any of that stuff until about six years ago! All of that was new to me! And I can tell it was new to most everyone on this forum, too!

People new to bonsai need to be successful with their trees (not kill them) so they don’t give up the hobby.

Doing things a tried and true way is more likely to end in success.

I get it, you’re a cheerleader. You want to encourage folks to get out of their comfort zone. Do new things. But for most people, repotting, trimming, wiring are plenty enough challenge.

When learning to ride a bike, do you first learn on a smooth paved surface? Or do you learn on a gnarley slick rock mountain trail with 1000 foot drop offs?

 

[Shun]

Sorry I did not mean to cause this kind of discussion. I've read the ebihara method thread and I'm not following it 100% true to that.

All i did was to separate the airlayer, screw it to a plastic lid and plant it on a larger pot. I will keep the surface roots under the soil and repot it every year. That is my plan for the moment

I really did not want this kind of agression. Sorry for anything

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Sorry I did not mean to cause this kind of discussion. I've read the ebihara method thread and I'm not following it 100% true to that.

All i did was to separate the airlayer, screw it to a plastic lid and plant it on a larger pot. I will keep the surface roots under the soil and repot it every year. That is my plan for the moment

I really did not want this kind of agression. Sorry for anything

Hi Shun,
I wouldn’t worry about the big dogs having a fight. Good info in the thread for you.
Charles

 

[0soyoung]

I still have my skepticism about Ebihara's 'method'. If it works, it does so by an air-layer screwed to a board. But it certainly doesn't happen quickly.

I've noted that palmatum layers will produce a fat 'skirt' fairly quickly if they are grown in dense, sticky, high-clay content soil. This, unfortunately, also leads to having a few very fat roots. Possibly if these are pruned periodically, the skirt can be made to expand into a pancake in something under 30 years. Add screwing it to a board, maybe faster yet.

Ebihara was a master grafter. Lots of seedling root grafts is another way to produce a pancake in fairly short order. I've seen many unmistakable examples of this in pix and it is apparent that it likely take 30 years for the tell-tale vestiges to disappear. So, while it can be done to make pancake nebari, I am convinced that, despite his grafting mastery, Ebihara didn't do this.

There is also the possibility of making a pancake by threading seedlings through multiple hole in a tile and pruning off the peripheral trunks after they have fused, a technique that @garywood featured on his web site years ago. This, I think, is the way to do it if you either don't have another 30 years or don't have that much patience. I came from a profession where the cycle of learning was about 3 weeks. The cycle of learning in bonsai is at least a year - try something, it will be at least a year to see the reponse; then you get to try again. A 20-30 year cycle of learning is just not a 'cycle of learning'.

Screw an air layer to a tile. Thread a multitude of seedlings through holes in the tile arrayed around the layer. Let grow until they have fused. Cut off the seedling roots. Unscrew the air layer and remove the tile . Screw the works to a board so that you can now position the peripheral roots.

Yet another possibility is to start as sumo development: chop a thick trunk very low, grow new shoots until they have more or less merged, chop them, rinse and repeat until the basic pancake is established. Then either pick one shoot to grow into your tree or go full Ebihara and graft a nicely developed branch onto it - the branch, of course, sustained by an approach grafted seeding! I think this is how many famous palmatum clumps may have been made. It may lead to pancake nebari, but I think this produces something too mounded/lumpy.

At any rate, it is something I enjoy ruminating about - I don't have 30 years, in all likelihood, to find out. Besides, I am not a big fan of pancake nebari. On the other hand, I do love clumps.

 

[Adair M]

Boon visited with Mr. Ebihara, and saw his trees and methods up close and personal. He uses a wooden board. It doesn’t have to be an air layer to start, but air layers work well. He doesn’t repot every year. Every other year. Then, he cuts the roots off where they go down at the edges of the board. He lets the top grow profusely. Lots of leaves = lots of root growth.

Burying the nebari in the soil keeps the “bark” of the roots soft. Exposing them to the sun, or letting them get dry promotes the development of real bark. That protects the roots. But it also prevents the roots from swelling.

You don’t want a few very heavy roots, you want lots of small roots evenly spread around the base of the trunk. If you don’t have this, you may have to repot yearly and adjust until you do. Then you can let it go two years between repotting.

 

[evanjt]

Here I am with my popcorn watching the action.

Hahahaha

I love to see the passion in both these guys because it proves the art of Bonsai really is amazing and something worth while to get behind.

 

[Adair M]

Here I am with my popcorn watching the action.

Hahahaha

I love to see the passion in both these guys because it proves the art of Bonsai really is amazing and something worth while to get behind.

Here is a Zelkova I screwed to a board;



The trunk is attached to the board by a screw coming up from below and into the base of the trunk. The green screws are positioning the roots. They sit beside the roots, not thru it.



As potted. A layer of bonsai soil first. Then the board, then an inch or so of soil. Then chopped spaghnum moss over the top.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Sorce, have you done any Ebihara techniques? Have you ever created pancake nebari?

I didn’t think so.

It’s all well and good to “think outside the box”. I regularly explode people’s boxes on this forum! Several years ago, I advocated spinning wire off instead of cutting it off. That simple thing blew people’s minds!

I still advocate wiring deciduous in spring and summer, not fall/winter. People still don’t get it. I also advocate using the upward growing bud on Maples and wiring them down, rather than using the downward growing buds.

I advocated using the “half bare root repot”.

I even showed Ebihara’s nebari technique of screwing a trunk onto a board.

All these things were new to most of this forum community. But, they are all tried and tested.

This stuff you advocate? Figments of your imagination. There is SO MUCH misinformation about bonsai. Beginners hear a lot of totally contradictory stuff. Please only advise people to do things you know to be true. Not stuff you “think” should work. If you’ve tested some new technique, and you can show us the results, then fine! But until then...

 

[Adair M]

View attachment 173107

Perhaps. Perhaps I’m just tired of his BS.