Repotting and half bare rooting pines

[Cosmos]

That's interesting and something I hadn't really ever thought about. I've always been impressed by the trees from Canada in the National show, not only the styling but they look incredibly healthy. I wonder if some of the bonsai growers are working with older stocks of akadama (or perhaps illegally obtained) or are they mostly using the type of mix you described? If the latter, I'd like to know more about that.

None of the trees that you would have seen in Rochester (at least from the Montreal Botanical Garden collections) are likely to have any akadama in their mix. Chabasai is the big component here (the Montreal society sells chabasai, haydite and composted pine bark as its 3 components).

It’s our expo tomorrow, if you are interested in the mix used for a particular species, I can ask the curator.

I think we are blessed with a growing season that is easier to manage than you guys down south. Our heat waves are usually not long or super intense, our nights tend to be cool, and when it’s hot, it tends to be really humid, so trees don’t mind it all that much. And we rarely get those week-long rains or storms, usually it rains a day or two and then it’s back to sunshine (this last spring was an exception, very very wet).

 

[amatbrewer]

I have yet to see a professional that does not use Akadama for certain trees, stages, etc. However, this is based on shows primarily in the Pacific Northwest, Washington, Oregon, California and my experiences in Japan. Top trees i have seen in collections in Ontario and Quebec have also used Akadama. The percentages change and the additional components vary with region.

No offence, but this is faulty logic (Argument From Authority). The broad acceptance of some claim or action is not always a good indication that the acceptance is justified. The world being flat was almost universally believed (and apparently still is in some circles) before it was shown to be round. Akadama may or may not be absolutely necessary for top quality Bonsai, but just because it is used in them is not proof in and of itself. I do admit that the more I learn about Akadama the more it does seem it is almost ideal...but that does not mean there are not other materials that are close to, as good as, or possibly even better.
As an example: When I worked in restaurants, all of the professional chefs I encountered used stainless steel cookware. Is it the best, should I be using it at home? The answer is: not necessarily. SS is used because it is very durable & versatile and because of that less expensive for a commercial kitchen than some other options, and it does not matter how much butter/oil they use in a dish...but most importantly it is because someone else was cleaning it (yes, I started out as a dishwasher). At home I use non-stick...most of the time.

I would argue that many ideas and practices tend to get entrenched and/or regarded as sacred and as such become circular. It is popular so it get propagated until all (or most) the recognized 'authorities' do it, so it must be right...right? I see it all the time in my own field; "We have always done it this way" or "That is the way everyone else is doing it." They may or may not be valid, it is only through periodic review and fair evaluation of the available evidence and alternatives can we know.

 

[DirkvanDreven]

In every article I read about the use of Akadama in Japan, the fact that it's cheap is mentioned. Looks like Japanese are like us, dutch. Cheap is good, cheap we use.
The same time in the Netherlands all discussions on soil I.e. cat litter, the fact that it is cheaper then Akadama is mentioned as nr 1 argument.
I'm using Akadama, and I'll keep using Akadama. I like to use it and my trees seem to agree. Last couple of years I use pre-sieved mixes of Akadama, pumice and lava and Akadama and pumice. This year I also tried APL with fired Akadama. Think it works wel with conifers, but I'm not so fond of the reddish color.

 

[coh]

None of the trees that you would have seen in Rochester (at least from the Montreal Botanical Garden collections) are likely to have any akadama in their mix. Chabasai is the big component here (the Montreal society sells chabasai, haydite and composted pine bark as its 3 components).

It’s our expo tomorrow, if you are interested in the mix used for a particular species, I can ask the curator.

I think we are blessed with a growing season that is easier to manage than you guys down south. Our heat waves are usually not long or super intense, our nights tend to be cool, and when it’s hot, it tends to be really humid, so trees don’t mind it all that much. And we rarely get those week-long rains or storms, usually it rains a day or two and then it’s back to sunshine (this last spring was an exception, very very wet).

Yes, that would be great if you could ask about their mixes. This weekend also happens to be Bill V's open house so I'll try to remember to ask what he knows about the topic. I know I've heard about chabasi somewhere, maybe during one of the Mirai videos, but really don't know much about it or how it compares to DE, akadama, etc.

 

[Adair M]

I would argue that many ideas and practices tend to get entrenched and/or regarded as sacred and as such become circular. It is popular so it get propagated until all (or most) the recognized 'authorities' do it, so it must be right...right? I see it all the time in my own field; "We have always done it this way" or "That is the way everyone else is doing it." They may or may not be valid, it is only through periodic review and fair evaluation of the available evidence and alternatives can we know.

No, the point is not that “everyone” uses it. The point is that the people who make the very best bonsai in the world use it.

 

[River's Edge]

No offence, but this is faulty logic (Argument From Authority). The broad acceptance of some claim or action is not always a good indication that the acceptance is justified. The world being flat was almost universally believed (and apparently still is in some circles) before it was shown to be round. Akadama may or may not be absolutely necessary for top quality Bonsai, but just because it is used in them is not proof in and of itself. I do admit that the more I learn about Akadama the more it does seem it is almost ideal...but that does not mean there are not other materials that are close to, as good as, or possibly even better.
As an example: When I worked in restaurants, all of the professional chefs I encountered used stainless steel cookware. Is it the best, should I be using it at home? The answer is: not necessarily. SS is used because it is very durable & versatile and because of that less expensive for a commercial kitchen than some other options, and it does not matter how much butter/oil they use in a dish...but most importantly it is because someone else was cleaning it (yes, I started out as a dishwasher). At home I use non-stick...most of the time.

I would argue that many ideas and practices tend to get entrenched and/or regarded as sacred and as such become circular. It is popular so it get propagated until all (or most) the recognized 'authorities' do it, so it must be right...right? I see it all the time in my own field; "We have always done it this way" or "That is the way everyone else is doing it." They may or may not be valid, it is only through periodic review and fair evaluation of the available evidence and alternatives can we know.

No offence taken you are allowed to express judgement!
Have at it. However in all fairness I should indicate that I am not interested in a soil argument or philosophical sophistry!

The sentence you removed before the quotation referenced to primarily inorganic substrate! Your use of technical language seems to infer some education so the difference should be obvious when you exclude that from the overall context. No offence intended, just to let you know i have three university degrees and understand the terms you have used.

What little authority i have is based on my own research and experience with available components. I grow over forty species in my Nursery and use primarily Lava, granite grit, pumice, Akadama, Kanuma and Kiryu.
Occasional use of pine bark, charcoal, and shredded sphagnum moss.

Components that i have tried over the years and found wanting for my purposes are Napa 8822 ( DE ) , Sea Soil, Potting Soil, and coconut husk. The reason i found them unsuitable was the type of root systems developed in those substrates compared to the ones i could develop using inorganic substrate. iInorganic substrate are easier to sift to similar particle size, and suit the particular stages of bonsai development and species better in my experience.

I am after the healthiest tree's i can produce in my circumstances and i am willing to try new products or innovative methods. I think what gets lost in the turmoil is the fact that many substrates can be used in different circumstances ( very importantly different stages). Here in North America nursery stock is often grown in peat moss and pine bark. And for example in Western Japan pine Bonsai in training are usually cultivated solely in granite sand: akadama is rarely used. Show tree's in smaller pots with refined root systems are a very specific circumstance. Check out the visible evidence whenever you attend a major show!

 

[amatbrewer]

No offence taken you are allowed to express judgement!
Have at it. However in all fairness I should indicate that I am not interested in a soil argument or philosophical sophistry!

The sentence you removed before the quotation referenced to primarily inorganic substrate! Your use of technical language seems to infer some education so the difference should be obvious when you exclude that from the overall context. No offence intended, just to let you know i have three university degrees and understand the terms you have used.

What little authority i have is based on my own research and experience with available components. I grow over forty species in my Nursery and use primarily Lava, granite grit, pumice, Akadama, Kanuma and Kiryu.
Occasional use of pine bark, charcoal, and shredded sphagnum moss.

Components that i have tried over the years and found wanting for my purposes are Napa 8822 ( DE ) , Sea Soil, Potting Soil, and coconut husk. The reason i found them unsuitable was the type of root systems developed in those substrates compared to the ones i could develop using inorganic substrate. iInorganic substrate are easier to sift to similar particle size, and suit the particular stages of bonsai development and species better in my experience.

I am after the healthiest tree's i can produce in my circumstances and i am willing to try new products or innovative methods. I think what gets lost in the turmoil is the fact that many substrates can be used in different circumstances ( very importantly different stages). Here in North America nursery stock is often grown in peat moss and pine bark. And for example in Western Japan pine Bonsai in training are usually cultivated solely in granite sand: akadama is rarely used. Show tree's in smaller pots with refined root systems are a very specific circumstance. Check out the visible evidence whenever you attend a major show!

Now THAT is a good and fair argument!
And yes, I am at fault for not recognizing the basic premise of your argument being the use of primarily inorganic substrate, and focusing just on the appeal to the popularity of using Akadama. Bad form on my part, for that you have my apologies.
And I appreciate the additional information you have provided.

 

[0soyoung]

The point is that the people who make the very best bonsai in the world use it.

IOW, you do not regard any of Walter Pall's trees as being among the very best bonsai in the world.

 

[Adair M]

IOW, you do not regard any of Walter Pall's trees as being among the very best bonsai in the world.

I don’t know what “IOW” means.

Walter has some very nice trees. Many will be great in the future, but they are still rather coarse. Deciduous trees take a long time to develop, and lots of his trees just haven’t been in training long enough.

 

[Vance Wood]

Here is my point for what it's worth. I do not use Akadama because 3 years is just about the life span of the product and it is very expensive. Most of my trees are conifers and do not require repotting that frequently (3 years) this sequence can prove detrimental. Sorce made the comment that the break down of Akadama is good? I do not find this to be good at all and here is why. It is my belief that a soil mix should hold it's structure for at least ten years. Structure is the physical structure of a soil mix that provides a measure of consistency over a long period. If an element in your soil mix breaks down it will automatically cause a degree of water retention changing the field capacity (the amount of water the soil will hold) which the predictability of the soil mix will and it's expiration date will change. Where this becomes critical is when you are dealing with trees like Mugo Pines that like a lot of water to flush out the soil but do not like sitting in soggy soil. In short they like a lot of water but cannot tolerate being kept wet. When a basic element of a soil mix does what Akadama does your Mugos will decline because of it.

 

[River's Edge]

Yes, that would be great if you could ask about their mixes. This weekend also happens to be Bill V's open house so I'll try to remember to ask what he knows about the topic. I know I've heard about chabasi somewhere, maybe during one of the Mirai videos, but really don't know much about it or how it compares to DE, akadama, etc.

Chabasai is another mined inorganic substance ( Zeolite ) that is Volcanic in origin, Moisture retention rate i believe is 48%, this is similar to Akadama at 45%- 38% depending on hardness and grain size. Chabasi also has positive chemical properties for Bonsai in relatively neutral Ph and is considered non-toxic.

 

[wireme]

Chabasai is another mined inorganic substance ( Zeolite ) that is Volcanic in origin, Moisture retention rate i believe is 48%, this is similar to Akadama at 45%- 38% depending on hardness and grain size. Chabasi also has positive chemical properties for Bonsai in relatively neutral Ph and is considered non-toxic.

I know a guy who can source zeolite for me from the Kamloops mines. Hopefully at a nice particle size. I hope to have a pile to try out next year. I would also like to try akadama sometime.

 

[River's Edge]

Here is my point for what it's worth. I do not use Akadama because 3 years is just about the life span of the product and it is very expensive. Most of my trees are conifers and do not require repotting that frequently (3 years) this sequence can prove detrimental. Sorce made the comment that the break down of Akadama is good? I do not find this to be good at all and here is why. It is my belief that a soil mix should hold it's structure for at least ten years. Structure is the physical structure of a soil mix that provides a measure of consistency over a long period. If an element in your soil mix breaks down it will automatically cause a degree of water retention changing the field capacity (the amount of water the soil will hold) which the predictability of the soil mix will and it's expiration date will change. Where this becomes critical is when you are dealing with trees like Mugo Pines that like a lot of water to flush out the soil but do not like sitting in soggy soil. In short they like a lot of water but cannot tolerate being kept wet. When a basic element of a soil mix does what Akadama does your Mugos will decline because of it.

For what it is worth i disagree with your premise. The percentage of Akadama and the quality of Akadama greatly changes the results and repotting requirements. I have personally repotted trees after seven years that did not require it because of the akadama breaking down. Healthy trees have roots that cont

I know a guy who can source zeolite for me from the Kamloops mines. Hopefully at a nice particle size. I hope to have a pile to try out next year. I would also like to try akadama sometime.

If you get in to Vancouver sometime Akadama is sold at Floral Bonsai Gardens, 1-604-723-5862. Formerly Japan Bonsai Garden owned by Tak Yamura.

 

[Adair M]

Here is my point for what it's worth. I do not use Akadama because 3 years is just about the life span of the product and it is very expensive. Most of my trees are conifers and do not require repotting that frequently (3 years) this sequence can prove detrimental. Sorce made the comment that the break down of Akadama is good? I do not find this to be good at all and here is why. It is my belief that a soil mix should hold it's structure for at least ten years. Structure is the physical structure of a soil mix that provides a measure of consistency over a long period. If an element in your soil mix breaks down it will automatically cause a degree of water retention changing the field capacity (the amount of water the soil will hold) which the predictability of the soil mix will and it's expiration date will change. Where this becomes critical is when you are dealing with trees like Mugo Pines that like a lot of water to flush out the soil but do not like sitting in soggy soil. In short they like a lot of water but cannot tolerate being kept wet. When a basic element of a soil mix does what Akadama does your Mugos will decline because of it.

Vance, have you ever actually used akadama?

If you have, and you are speaking from experience, that’s fine. You can say you have tried it, and it didn’t perform to your satisfaction.

If you have not actually tried it, then your post is pure speculation and conjecture.

 

[Vance Wood]

For what it is worth i disagree with your premise. The percentage of Akadama and the quality of Akadama greatly changes the results and repotting requirements. I have personally repotted trees after seven years that did not require it because of the akadama breaking down. Healthy trees have roots that cont

If you get in to Vancouver sometime Akadama is sold at Floral Bonsai Gardens, 1-604-723-5862. Formerly Japan Bonsai Garden owned by Tak Yamura.

With all due respects you cannot compare your environment and your results with mine where summer highs can be in three digits and winter temperatures can be below zero for as much as a month at a time, or you can have a season where you get neither. So vierually you are telling me that the change in structure and the subsequent change in the field capacity and moisture retention is of no account?

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance, have you ever actually used akadama?

If you have, and you are speaking from experience, that’s fine. You can say you have tried it, and it didn’t perform to your satisfaction.

If you have not actually tried it, then your post is pure speculation and conjecture.

Yes I have and I did not like it. I did not like the fact that it turned to mush. I have to be able to have a soil that will be the same today, tomorrow and five years from today, IN MY EXPERIENCE Akadama does not do that.

 

[Adair M]

Yes I have and I did not like it. I did not like the fact that it turned to mush. I have to be able to have a soil that will be the same today, tomorrow and five years from today, IN MY EXPERIENCE Akadama does not do that.

Fair enough.

It does not break down that fast for me. Maybe you got a bad batch. Like any mined product, the quality can vary.

All I can say is my JBP and JWP thrive in an equal parts APL Mix. And I tend to repot about every 5 years.

 

[watchndsky]

Hey there Uncle Robo….Don't go away Mad or Disillusioned, this is the Best Bonsai Forum on the Internet...
Source, Adair, V.Wood, Mach5, BVF, Smoke, and Many others that I haven't mentioned are the Absolute Best of the Bonsai World... however they are also Outspoken, Opinionated, but almost always Right in what they say and Advise/// Special note****Uncle Robo just pull down your shield and keep welding its all good and so are you.....Bolero

hey!!!! what about me??????????

 

[River's Edge]

With all due respects you cannot compare your environment and your results with mine where summer highs can be in three digits and winter temperatures can be below zero for as much as a month at a time, or you can have a season where you get neither. So vierually you are telling me that the change in structure and the subsequent change in the field capacity and moisture retention is of no account?

Not really! But i think you know that. Experienced Bonsai practitioners always adjust their care to the circumstances. It is a part of everyday routines, gauging the amount of water and deciding if repotting is becoming necessary.
I also have had bad experiences with poor quality akadama that turned to mush in a year or two. Not as fast as DEGood quality Akadama does not do that and often lasts 7-10 years. I rarely let my trees go that long between repots. I prefer to regenerate roots more frequently to ensure long term health.
My climate often has 30 degree Celsius for periods of time, temperatures below zero for a month at a time and plenty of rainfall throughout the winter for freeze thaw affect. Is it the same as yours, not exactly!
if Akadama does not work for you, i consider that unfortunate because it can create fantastic healthy trees. A huge advantage in developing Bonsai. Fortunately there are lots of other soil components out there.

 

[M. Frary]

IOW, you do not regard any of Walter Pall's trees as being among the very best bonsai in the world.

He doesn't.
Because they aren't planted in Akadama.
Plain and simple.