Same rules for box store trees as collected?

[Spdyracer]

just got a crab apple at lowes for 50% off so ended up $12 couldn't pass it up. Doesn't look like its grafted and has an ok sized trunk. I'm guessing same rules apply as a collected tree? Should I not chop it and bare root it? Should I just plant it in the ground for the year and work on it next year? Tree is about 7' tall.

 

[rockm]

Trees in containers have almost complete, uncompromised root systems. Reducing them is not like digging a tree out of the ground.

Containerized trees' compact roots are more resilient because you're not removing 99 percent of it, even if you saw it in half. An in ground tree's root system could meander around a quarter to half acre of land. Removing a tree from the ground removes about all of its roots.

Apple are also resilient. You can probably chop and bare root it now and it would recover.

The problem with doing that now if the tree is in leaf, is getting it back to health before winter comes.

The most active growing time for temperate zone trees ends at the summer solstice (the lonest day of the year--this year it's June 20), when the days start getting shorter. Those shortening days trigger chemical changes in trees that tell them to mostly stop growing leaves and begin pushing nutrients to their roots and woody tissue in the long wind down to autumn.

 

[Spdyracer]

Trees in containers have almost complete, uncompromised root systems. Reducing them is not like digging a tree out of the ground.

Containerized trees' compact roots are more resilient because you're not removing 99 percent of it, even if you saw it in half. An in ground tree's root system could meander around a quarter to half acre of land. Removing a tree from the ground removes about all of its roots.

Apple are also resilient. You can probably chop and bare root it now and it would recover.

The problem with doing that now if the tree is in leaf, is getting it back to health before winter comes.

The most active growing time for temperate zone trees ends at the summer solstice (the lonest day of the year--this year it's June 20), when the days start getting shorter. Those shortening days trigger chemical changes in trees that tell them to mostly stop growing leaves and begin pushing nutrients to their roots and woody tissue in the long wind down to autumn.

Thanks rockm that's good to know and makes since the way you explained it. I'll have to think about it to try to decide if I want to take the chance or not. May come down to trunk size and if I'm ok with it or want it a little bigger. If I decide on bigger I may put it in the ground for a bit.

If I put it in the ground would it make since at all to chop it and plant it on a tile? Would that give me bit of a head start but also allow the trunk to thicken up still?

 

[fourteener]

I would take the time to straighten out the roots some. If they are a problem and grow in the ground for a few years... now they are really a problem!!

 

[rockm]

"If I put it in the ground would it make since at all to chop it and plant it on a tile? Would that give me bit of a head start but also allow the trunk to thicken up still"

You've got some things jumbled together here. The short answer is no head start, it will actually set you back.

Here's why--Planting the tree in the ground to get a bigger trunk means planting it and letting it alone (no chop). To increase trunk size, you want as much unrestricted growth on top as possible--the more growth up top the faster and thicker the bottom of the trunk will become.

Chopping the trunk assumes it is ALREADY the size you want and you're beginning development of an extension on top of it, which will lead to another chop up higher at a later date. .

Planting it on a tile could also figure into this decision. You're likely going to have to remove some roots to get it on the tile. Those roots will take time to replace. those lost roots will mean you have slowed the trunk's growth.

 

[Spdyracer]

"If I put it in the ground would it make since at all to chop it and plant it on a tile? Would that give me bit of a head start but also allow the trunk to thicken up still"

You've got some things jumbled together here. The short answer is no head start, it will actually set you back.

Here's why--Planting the tree in the ground to get a bigger trunk means planting it and letting it alone (no chop). To increase trunk size, you want as much unrestricted growth on top as possible--the more growth up top the faster and thicker the bottom of the trunk will become.

Chopping the trunk assumes it is ALREADY the size you want and you're beginning development of an extension on top of it, which will lead to another chop up higher at a later date. .

Planting it on a tile could also figure into this decision. You're likely going to have to remove some roots to get it on the tile. Those roots will take time to replace. those lost roots will mean you have slowed the trunk's growth.

Thanks again rockm. I'll have to get it out of the pot when I get home and decide. Getting a quick look at it before I bought it I was thinking it go either way because it's not a bad size but on the other hand I like trees that are on the bigger side so may want it to grow more. I'll dig into it after work and go from there.

At this point I'll either plant it in the ground and let the trunk get bigger or chop it and put it in a pot. Thanks again for the explanations.

 

[Spdyracer]

Well decided the trunk was large enough and did a chop and bare root on it. Now just need to watch it and take care of it

 

[aml1014]

Well decided the trunk was large enough and did a chop and bare root on it. Now just need to watch it and take care of it

View attachment 106206 View attachment 106207

Looks nice, my personal opinion would be to lose the large limb and keep the smaller one with forked branches. This would give you good taper and movement to start, and it would make the trunk look larger.

Aaron

EDIT: something I'll never forget reading is "when styling a tree, look for the smallest tree in the material you can see"

 

[sorce]

lose the large limb

I would second that fully....

Except....to not disturb it too much....
Maybe just ringbark it this year to kill it....
And run the saw on it next year.

Sorce

 

[rockm]

I'd also vote to keep the forked part and lose the long, mostly uninteresting right hand section. It will be a pretty nice shohin sized tree with good taper. Keeping the long taperless right hand branch will make for a less interesting bonsai.

I'd just saw it off. No need to baby it. You've already done the damage a day ago. Losing the rest at this point isn't really going to affect anything.

 

[Spdyracer]

Thanks for the advice guys and with everyone agreeing on what to do I'll have to take it.

Two questions before I do.
I havnt cut so close to a trunk yet to worry about the look of a healed wound. I've only sealed cuts with wood glue. Should I keep with that or use wound paste that I do have. If wound paste I have two small jars one green lid one white which is best between the two.
Second can I get help on a cut line. Not sure if I should leave a small nub sticking up at all or cut down along the trunk.

 

[rockm]

I'd cut along the line of the smaller trunk, using the top of it as a guide for taper. I'd then add another1/2 inch of width, then carve out the wound once the cut is made. I don't know which pastes you have. Either one will work as long as they cover the edges of the wound and keep it moist. FWIW, I'm using plumber's putty and duct sealant paste to seal my trees these days. Cheaper and just as effective.

 

[Smoke]

It is grafted and the smaller trunk is a sucker from the root stock. It will always be the stronger of the two.

 

[Spdyracer]

I'd cut along the line of the smaller trunk, using the top of it as a guide for taper. I'd then add another1/2 inch of width, then carve out the wound once the cut is made. I don't know which pastes you have. Either one will work as long as they cover the edges of the wound and keep it moist. FWIW, I'm using plumber's putty and duct sealant paste to seal my trees these days. Cheaper and just as effective.

Trying to picture what your explaining just want to make sure I got it. Are you saying cut at the v where the two trunks come together? Not following the adding 1/2 inch of width to carve it out. Got the carving part and like that idea instead of just having a flat smooth cut.

 

[rockm]

In other words, don't carve exactly along the line between the two trunks, adding a 1/2 or so to the outside of the cut. Don't really have to do that, but it could help add a bit more taper. By carving it out, I meant carve about a 1/2 inch deep into the pruning wound to minimize the lump of callus tissue that will grow over the wound. You could also make a "uro" or hollow there, but apple wood rots pretty easily and that might mean extra work on the wound site down the road.

 

[Giga]

This is what I would do for a plan - Ancient apples are hollow and damaged. You'll need to wait a year or two to do this but this is what I c, Hollow it to the top - this is just a quick virt

 

[Adair M]

Well, you've already done it, so I'll wish you good luck.

But, this is the wrong time of year to be barerooting deciduous trees.

My advice would have been to not do anything until next spring. Then bare root it, and build a grow box for it. And chop it however you like. That way you could make a flat root ball. The shape of the box I would suggest would be wider than the plastic can its it, and about half as deep.

The idea is to get the roots to spread out wide, rather than down.

Now, to the next point: Smoke is probably right. It appears to be grafted, and you're cutting the grafted part off. Which leaves you with the base under stock. Which is... Who knows? It's unlikely to have good characteristics for bonsai. Maybe you'll get lucky.

The catch-22 got those new to bonsai is learning how to choose appropriate material. It takes experience. And newbies don't have any experience.

But, you're getting some now!

 

[rockm]

This is what I would do for a plan - Ancient apples are hollow and damaged. You'll need to wait a year or two to do this but this is what I c, Hollow it to the top - this is just a quick virt
View attachment 106246

The pointy top image and huge jin would suit a juniper better. A modification of this for a deciduous tree would be a rounded broom-like apex built off the existing forks on the small trunk, as well as a much shorter hollowed out section with a ragged broken top.

As far as the graft goes, I'm not so sure that the dominant trunk isn't the understock and the forked portion isn't the portion that was grafted on. Look more closely at how the strong trunk has a direct trunk line to the nebari... Since understock tends to be extremely vigorous, it's not surprising to see it take over a grafted tree if lower shoots coming off the understock aren't kept in check. I see understock on grafted landscape Japanese maples over take the top graft all the time. The owners don't understand what's going on and let understock shoots grow, which weakens the portion they paid extra to get...

 

[Giga]

The pointy top image and huge jin would suit a juniper better. A modification of this for a deciduous tree would be a rounded broom-like apex built off the existing forks on the small trunk, as well as a much shorter hollowed out section with a ragged broken top.

As far as the graft goes, I'm not so sure that the dominant trunk isn't the understock and the forked portion isn't the portion that was grafted on. Look more closely at how the strong trunk has a direct trunk line to the nebari... Since understock tends to be extremely vigorous, it's not surprising to see it take over a grafted tree if lower shoots coming off the understock aren't kept in check. I see understock on grafted landscape Japanese maples over take the top graft all the time. The owners don't understand what's going on and let understock shoots grow, which weakens the portion they paid extra to get...

It was a 2 minute virt but yes style for a deciduous tree, more to get an idea across. And that section would be hollowed out not just a jin, maybe a branch or two on it as well

 

[rockm]

It was a 2 minute virt but yes style for a deciduous tree, more to get an idea across. And that section would be hollowed out not just a jin, maybe a branch or two on it as well

Sorry, didn't mean to sound that way. I think the idea is great. Old apples do have rugged, busted details and those kinds of things add a lot to apple bonsai.