Satsuki repotting

Mike Jones

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Good link, one of which I had not come across. Thank you.

Mike
 

Bill S

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Somewhere along the line Nick had issues using S.T. on pines, memory says he said it can kill them, possibly after repotting??, I'll try to go thru Bonsai from the Wild I believe it is in there.
 

Mike Jones

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Somewhere along the line Nick had issues using S.T. on pines, memory says he said it can kill them, possibly after repotting??, I'll try to go thru Bonsai from the Wild I believe it is in there.

Bill, I would not use it on Pines. There is every possibility it would kill the beneficial fungus within the soil.

Mike
 

satsuki

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Japanese recommend to remove all old soil when repotting.

Not to be disrespectful, but you are very wrong my friend. The japanese bareroot sometimes, but definitely not every tree. It is usually done with trees brought in from a field or trees with a soil problem. Most other times the tree is not barerooted when repotting.
 
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Si Nguyen

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I would guess your suggestions for more frequent watering during this time while over-wintered is based on it is impossible to over water if it drains well? I understand the repelling that you explained.

Satsukis are not truly deciduous. They don't go completely dormant in winter. If it's healthy it should be growing and absorbing water. So yes, keep watering it, at least once every 2-3 days.

new leaves that arrived last year gained brown tips very quickly. I would consider this a sign of over or under watering?

I am not entirely sure about what causes the tips of the leaves to burn like that. Maybe others can chime in here. I don't think it's due to under or over watering directly though. But if the root ball is too compacted, then it could have spots that are under-watered and spots that are over-watered all the time. The entire green leaf would droop and then dried out if it is acutely under-watered, then quick death if not watered again in time. Chronic over- watering will get you weak, pale, yellowed leaves which will drop off easily, then when root rot sets in, whole branches will dry up, then death. Too wet root ball could get the Verticelium wilt fungus which has no known cure. Your leaf tip burning sounds more like bad compacted soil with too much salt build-up, then in the summer, weak leaves burn more easily when exposed to hot drying wind. I get this with some of my potted maples in the summer. Shade, even watering, loose airy soil, and organic fertilizers should stop this leaf tip burning. A tree can be in the rain for 1-2 days straight and still perk up, but if you water it with tap water for a few hours straight, it will wilt. Tap water is not the same as rain water. A big chlorine dose will kill off all the beneficial fungus and bacteria in the root ball. That's a whole other topic.

I note some of the very tiny new signs of life by way of very tiny leaves are already demonstrating this brown tip to the ends.

This sounds serious. I would bring the tree to an expert to look at. The minimum you could do is to poke tiny holes through the root ball. That's harmless. The most drastic would be to repot and remove old soil and cut away any dead spots.

If compacted, I would assume there is going to be a lack of space for oxygen, I have investigated brown tips without much degree of success; I am just thinking out loud here; could it be lack of oxygen or, salts as you mention may be possible.

Lack of oxygen and salt build-ups tend to occur together. Try to aerate the root ball by using some bamboo skewers or thin sharp chopsticks to poke holes thru it, and see how it respond in a few months. The only way to remove the old salt build-up is to remove the old soil, so you will have to do that eventually, maybe sooner rather than later. But be careful when removing old soil, and try not to cut away any live roots. It probably does not have much good roots to spare.

Good luck!
 
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Attila Soos

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Japanese recommend to remove all old soil when repotting.

They use a chopstick and carve away all soil in between the roots. Is that not bare rooting?

Just one example. They all do this.
http://satsukimania.net/index.php/tips/repot.html

All satsuki bonsai books I have seen recommend exactly this.

In Japan, the Satsukis are often bare-rooted.
But Japan's highly humid climate is the home of Satsuki bonsai. The rest of the world, not so much.

Here is what Robert Callaham says, in his Satsuki book:
"..such seemingly casual treatment was deemed adequate to maintain viability of roots in Japan's highly humid environment. In a Mediterranean climate, such infrequent moistening of roots probably would result in significant mortality of exposed roots.."Here, he refers to Mediterranean climate (my climate), and I know that many of us live in a climate that is not Mediterranean. But the point is, we, outside of Japan, need to be more conservative in the way we treat the roots of these plants, because our climate is never exactly the same as the one in Japan. I've learned the hard way, that some plants behave very well outside their homeland, but some plants become very touchy in a foreign climate, even just slightly different.
I am sure that most of the time, a careful bare-rooting would cause no problems, but "most of the time" is not good enough for me. I want to make sure, that a problem never happens.

The book also says that even in Japan, the top of the root-ball is treated with extra care, by covering the potting medium (after repotting) with an extra layer of mulch. This will keep the top layer moist at all times, which is necessary to develop the strong surface roots.
This is why I leave the live moss intact on the top of the rootball, if I already have a nice and perfect nebari. If there are faults to be corrected, then of course you have to do some combing of the top layer of surface roots, and then apply the mulch for extra protection.

P.S.: Just to put the above in perspective, one often hears that you should never bare-root pine trees. This is a good advice, but I've often dug out field-grown pines in my backyard, and they ended up being bare-rooted, because the the entire soil was shaken out of their rootball. And they did just fine after being potted. But this success doesn't mean that I will bare-root an old pine. The extra care is always important, when we work with a valuable tree.
 
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Harunobu

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If most of the time a tree is not bare rooted and in Japan it would be bad to bare root, they wouldn't recommend it. So yes, they do recommend it. So I am not very wrong. You are slightly wrong. I never expressed my own opinion anyway. Either the Japanese are very wrong, or they aren't.
Japanese have commented that they can see westerners don't bare root often enough because of how western satsuki look. They may also be ignorant about issues satsuki have in California weather. I never expressed doubts that bare rooting has no issues outside of Japan and that it is recommended to bare root. I never said to always bare root either. Other people said to never bare root, which is opposite from what I see Japanese say. I merely raised the issue.

I suspected it may be a climate issue. We all know that with satsuki we have to be more careful outside Japan. I am not in a Mediterranean climate myself either. Very few people are.

Apparently satsuki bonsai masters of Japanese descent in California have developed other methods.

Obviously bare rooting takes a bigger risk.
 
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Bill S

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Attila earlier someone told him he was wrong about the Japanese barerooting, he likes to argue small points, in a way no less than to drag you in to let him show how smart he is. ;)
 

Harunobu

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I suggest you keep your personal grudges out of other people's threads.
 

satsuki

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Harunobu,

I am just wondering how many times you have been to japan and had a japanese satsuki master or expert tell you they recommend this. If you could please tell us the name of the japanese satsuki person who told you this, I would appreciate it. Or you could also tell us the nurseries that you visited that observed the barerooting of all these trees. Maybe you could even show us some of your satsuki bonsai that you have that you bareroot often.

To be clear I have never been to japan or talked to any japanese satsuki people, but my teacher certainly has, and I think I will take his word on this one, being that he studied with a japanese satsuki person.

And also I am pretty sure there are no satsuki masters living in California, or anywhere else in the US. "Master" overly applied to people who are experts, but no masters.


Regards,
Andrew
 

satsuki

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Mike lets get back to topic.

If you don't believe this a soil problem, then I would suggest not barerooting it because barerooting is one of the biggest stress to a satsuki. I dont recommend performing a huge stress to an unhealthy tree.

Hope everything works out,
Andrew
 

Mike Jones

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Thanks Andrew.

I've read everything, warts and all:) I think when the time is right I shall repot prior to flowering and once said flowers are swollen remove the lot.

Root ball wise, I suppose I am just going to have to cross that bridge when I examine it.

How is Vine Weevil with Satsuki, would Provado VW2 be worth using 'in case'? Thinks have not been right with the trees this last six months (all trees) I put it down to they all need repotting and the horrendous -10 --14c winter we had which went on and on. Day after day below freezing. Whilst I realise this is quite normal in nature, comparisons between Bonsai and trees in the wild fall well short.

The leaves on two Satsuki getting brown tips with odd new leaves doing the same has been alarming and of course this was well before winter.

Which I suppose prompted me to consider a bare root repot to eradicate all problems; and of course create a new one through bare root repotting, if you are strongly against it.
Thanks

Mike
 

Harunobu

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Not all satsuki are very hardy. Not even as non-bonsai in full ground. This is why in many places you can't buy satsuki azalea.
Also, shorter and cooler winters can result in the azalea being less hardy than it would be in the Japanese climate.

Below -10 you get closer and closer to the danger zone. Especially if it also freezes hard during the day. Numbers don't tell the whole story and the hardiness of anyway.

Andrew, I will ask your questions. If you have any more, I will ask them too.

It may very well be that they don't remove kanuma that is still in good quality.

Can you post a picture of the brown tips? It can be frost damage. Does it look like this?
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss73/Harunobu/IMG_2583.jpg?t=1298551368
I don't think this kind of frost damage is a big deal, though it may well have destroyed all flower buds.
If your azalea looks unhealthy and has added frost damage on top, why not not repot with removing flowers and help it recover first? Just a suggestion. I don't do bonsai myself.

It does puzzle me why people who are bonsai/tree people first and azalea/flower people only secondary have to use the tender, though impressive, satsuki. Why not use more hardy local azalea cultivar? Especially considering that satsuki bonsai have to be imported from Japan, resulting in an unreasonable price. Of course those other azalea need to be grown into bonsai, which isn't done. Seems like an issue of profit margins.
 

Mike Jones

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Yes very similar to your pic but this was occurring prior to frosts, I'll do some pictures.

Mike
 

Dav4

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I'm wondering if there could be excess salts building up in the soil, or under/overwatering playing a role in the browning foliage, perhaps. I'm by no means an expert, either. Do you have any pictures showing the damaged foliage, Mike?

Dave
 

Mike Jones

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I honestly think it is a combination of the three. Under or over is a tough diagnosis. Took some pics safternoon so will upload later after tea.

Mike
 

Mike Jones

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I've taken some pictures which I've included below but to be fair it was at its worse last Summer. I have removed many of the brown tipped leaves. You can however hopefully see what I mean.

There does not seem to be any issue with buds, I counted over 300 and gave up, yes I'm that sad, I was enjoying nice sunshine, coffee and a break.

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