Satsuki

[Si Nguyen]

Hi everybody, thanks for your comments! Sorry I didn't reply to everyone right away.
Hi Ovation22, I agree, the nebari could use some more work. It's not ready for show yet. There are no crossing roots though, at least that can be seen on top. I took care of that a few years ago. There are a few high roots that need to be shaved off though, but I can't do it yet. There are several gaps in the nebari because of a few low roots in those area, just beneath the few grains of soil. I just need to uncover the soil a little more. I can't wire those low roots up anymore. One of them dried up on me last year so I am afraid to wire them now. Here's some more pics of the front and side views of the base.
There is a 3-Dimensional show of this tree on Australian Bonsai.com if anybody wants to see it in 3D. It is really cool what the Aussies are doing!

Si

 

[ovation22]

Si, sounds like you've done good work and have a good plan. Looking forward to seeing the next update on this one. It looks to be a great tree.

Shohin, not sure if I'm reading you correctly, didn't mean to anger you. If so, i apologize.

I've met Dave, only briefly, but he seemed like a great and knowledgeable guy. I've heard nothing but good things.

My sources? My teacher, Boon Manakitivipart. His good friend, Joe Harris. The 6 or 7 people in the Cincinnati club that have been to Japan. The 2 in the Louisville club that have been. The 10 or 12 friends from across the U.S. that have been. And, I'll be sure to confirm when I visit Japan in February.

Anyway, I can't speak to those trees in the flower festivals, so if you have reports I'm sure you are correct. I have absolutely no reason to believe otherwise, and from your posts you too seem to be a knowledgeable individual. My response was in regards to Satsuki Azalea as bonsai, and those specific trees that I have seen and discussed with others from the Kokufu show books that I and others have.

 

[shohin kid]

Ovation,
You did not anger me, I just like posts supported by facts, thanks for clarifying yours. I am sure this is a contriversal and opionated topic. The trees in the flower festivals i would think would be treated like bonsai except conserning styling purposes. The ones grown for flowers usually have thin trunks that are covered mostly by foliage. The bonsai satsukis follow the general rules of bonsai design, also the bonsai satsukis usually are displayed with less flowers. Right now, I am trying to learn all I can from dave, as satsukis are my favorite and the thing I am most interested in. I will get back to this thread after I talk to dave. Until then, nice tree si

 

[Si Nguyen]

Thanks Ovation22 and ShohinKid,
I prefer satsukis as bonsai too. In fact, I prefer the way my tree look without flowers. This is the first year that I let it bloom for a little longer for a photo opportunity.

Hi Atilla, I have had it for about 3 years now. It is in a mixture of akadama, kanuma, turface and lava rock. It was in 100% kanuma when I first got it, and it was doing well, but it is doing even better now in this mix. Kanuma and akadama seem to break down and compacted down very quickly in Southern California. I am not sure why. Maybe because of the chemicals in our water and the low humidy and the heat. I added a little bit of lava rock and turface to keep the soil from compacting too much. I had a really large nice raft-style satsuki in 1998 which died off after 2-3 years in Kanuma, and when I examined the root ball, that's what I found. I was so depressed I nearly gave up bonsai after the loss of that tree. Luckily, I still had some cuttings grown from that original tree, that are already blooming now.

Si

 

[Dav4]

In International Bonsai 2001/#3, there is an article on training Satsukis with a Japanese artist names Tatemori Gondo. Within this article, Mr Gondo is emphatic in stating that Satsuki bonsai should be transplanted in the early spring, and "never transplant a satsuki azalea after the blooming period as it will weaken the health of the tree". He goes on to say that this is contrary to what books suggest. So it would appear that at least one Japanese azalea expert advocates re-potting prior to flowering.

Dave

 

[Si Nguyen]

Hi Dave, that's good to know. I guess I did it right. I had transplanted my tree only once before, and that was in early spring (February in my coastal Southern California zone). Did the article explained on how and when to remove flowers? I am not sure when is the best time to remove flower buds. I am thinking I need to remove a few leaves with the flowers too. Thanks.
Si

 

[Dav4]

Hey Si,
I just looked at the article again...it doesn't discuss flower bud removal. I'm no azalea expert, but I seem to recall somewhere where it was advised to remove excess flower buds in late winter/early spring. I removed a bunch of buds on my new satsukis this past May prior to blooming...I just gently pushed the bud to the side and snapped it off at the base. Others with more experience should chime in here with their thoughts, too.

Dave

 

[Attila Soos]

I had a really large nice raft-style satsuki in 1998 which died off after 2-3 years in Kanuma, and when I examined the root ball, that's what I found. I was so depressed I nearly gave up bonsai after the loss of that tree.

That's such a strange coincidence, I had the exact same experience: a very old satsuki that I brought from Vancouver, it was in 100% Kanuma. It died after 1 year, here in California. When I looked at the roots, it was all mud and decomposed Kanuma. Like you, I was really distressed. No more Kanuma for me.

Following the advice of Tom Nuccio, from Nuccio's azalea nursery (he has the largerst azalea nursery on the West coast, for 30 years), I grow all my satsuki in 75% coarse peat moss and 25% pumice. I have some younger ones growing in 100% coarse peat moss. They are exceptionally healthy ever since. No more mud at the bottom of the pot.

 

[Attila Soos]

...I just gently pushed the bud to the side and snapped it off at the base. Others with more experience should chime in here with their thoughts, too.

Dave

That's how I remove the flower buds, pushing them aside with my thumb, and they snap and fall off.
This year I removed about 80% of the buds, but right now it is still covered with flowers. Had I left all the buds, one wouldn't be able to see one single green spot from the profusion of flowers.

 

[Si Nguyen]

Hey Si,
I just looked at the article again...it doesn't discuss flower bud removal. I'm no azalea expert, but I seem to recall somewhere where it was advised to remove excess flower buds in late winter/early spring. I removed a bunch of buds on my new satsukis this past May prior to blooming...I just gently pushed the bud to the side and snapped it off at the base. Others with more experience should chime in here with their thoughts, too.

Dave

Thanks Dave. I will have to pay attention next time I remove the flowers. It seems to me, the earlier you do it the better, so the tree won't have to waste any energy developing them at all.
Si

 

[Si Nguyen]

That's such a strange coincidence, I had the exact same experience: a very old satsuki that I brought from Vancouver, it was in 100% Kanuma. It died after 1 year, here in California. When I looked at the roots, it was all mud and decomposed Kanuma. Like you, I was really distressed. No more Kanuma for me.

Following the advice of Tom Nuccio, from Nuccio's azalea nursery (he has the largerst azalea nursery on the West coast, for 30 years), I grow all my satsuki in 75% coarse peat moss and 25% pumice. I have some younger ones growing in 100% coarse peat moss. They are exceptionally healthy ever since. No more mud at the bottom of the pot.

Hi Atilla, that dead tree was my fault. I had bought it from San Gabriel Nursery for a lot of money, and it was in some peat and old soil which I thought was poor eventhough the tree was doing great. Then after a year, I repotted it into 100% kanuma, which I also paid a lot of money for, then it died on me in about 2 years. It seemed that when the Kanuma started to decompose, it decomposed really quickly. I really do think it has a lot to do with our water. Our city water has something like 20 different chemicals added to it, not just chloride. Now I age my water for a day or two before watering my azaleas. No more brown leaves tips! I had used peat before too, but I am now afraid of introducing fungus to the soil mix. Although my garden azaleas do very well with pumice and peat mix like yours too. I forgot all about that Nuccio nursery! I had been there a few times many years ago when I was first interested in satsukis. They had many varieties of Satsukis there! Maybe I will go and check it out this weekend! Thanks for the idea!
Si

 

[Attila Soos]

I forgot all about that Nuccio nursery! I had been there a few times many years ago when I was first interested in satsukis. They had many varieties of Satsukis there! Maybe I will go and check it out this weekend! Thanks for the idea!
Si

You should check them out soon, since the flowering season is coming to an end. So, if you want to know how your flowers are going to look, this weekend may be a good time. They are about 10 blocks from my house in Altadena.

This weekend is the Descanso Bonsai Club show (tomorrow and Sunday), so you can visit the show and then check out the nursery, which is 10 minutes away from Descanso Gardens. I was there last weekend and bought two satsuki varieties (I just planted them in the ground), amazing flowers. They are open Saturday, but closed on Sunday.

I will be at Descanso on Saturday, may be I can meet you there.

 

[Si Nguyen]

You should check them out soon, since the flowering season is coming to an end. So, if you want to know how your flowers are going to look, this weekend may be a good time. They are about 10 blocks from my house in Altadena.

This weekend is the Descanso Bonsai Club show (tomorrow and Sunday), so you can visit the show and then check out the nursery, which is 10 minutes away from Descanso Gardens. I was there last weekend and bought two satsuki varieties (I just planted them in the ground), amazing flowers. They are open Saturday, but closed on Sunday.

I will be at Descanso on Saturday, may be I can meet you there.

Hi Atilla, that's perfect timing! I'd love to meet you there at the show. That is one show that I have never been to. I go up to the shows at the L.A. Arboretum at least once or twice a year but never had the chance to get over to Descanso. OK, so I will be at the show about 12 o'clock to 1 o'clock on Saturday. I hope there will be some demos by then.
See ya later!
Si Nguyen

 

[Attila Soos]

I'll be there around 1:30 (my son has a soccer game at 12).

I'll probably drop by the show at the opening - just to see whether there is anything I am interested in at the vendor section (a few years ago I got a great Cal. juniper for a hundred bucks, incredible trunk). Then I come back after the soccer game.

 

[Smoke]

I'll be there around 1:30 (my son has a soccer game at 12).

I'll probably drop by the show at the opening - just to see whether there is anything I am interested in at the vendor section (a few years ago I got a great Cal. juniper for a hundred bucks, incredible trunk). Then I come back after the soccer game.

....cleaning the slobber off the computer screen....

man that sounds like fun....wish I could be there...

 

[Glider]

Looks like a Gyoten more than Kaho, but has been said there are so many varieties it's hard to tell from this photo. I'll have to disagree with what's been said, the nebari could use some improvement. Work on arranging the roots at the next repotting and remove any crossed roots.

As for repotting, late Winter or early Spring is a much better time to repot. Repotting a Satsuki Azalea after flower only further weakens the tree. Repotting after flower is another long taught practice that is out dated and needs to be forgotten.

Just my $.02.

In International Bonsai 2001/#3, there is an article on training Satsukis with a Japanese artist names Tatemori Gondo. Within this article, Mr Gondo is emphatic in stating that Satsuki bonsai should be transplanted in the early spring, and "never transplant a satsuki azalea after the blooming period as it will weaken the health of the tree". He goes on to say that this is contrary to what books suggest. So it would appear that at least one Japanese azalea expert advocates re-potting prior to flowering.

Dave

I go along with this and I repot mine in early spring after popping off the flower buds.

The tradition of repotting after flowering appears in the older books, but that information was taken from even older, Japanese books (obviously) and is not as good when applied to satsuki grown outside Japan. Repotting time in Japan (late May) coincides with the beginning of the Tsuyu (rainy season) in the azalea growing regions, so after repotting, the plants enter a period of very frequent rain, very high humidity and warmth which aids their recovery.

In Western Europe, UK and USA, late May/early June usually signals higher temperatures, much dryer air and significantly reduced rainfall (usually). Even with regular watering, the dryer air that comes with summer is going to stress plants whose roots have been impaired through pruning. This places even more demand on plants that have already used a lot of energy on flowering. Azaleas are quite tough plants, and they will usually survive it, but they will sit and sulk and do nothing for a year. In our climates, I think it’s easier on them to repot in early spring. They tend to sulk less and, without flower buds, you can still get some good foliar growth the same years as repotting.


.

 

[Si Nguyen]

Hi Glider, that makes alot of sense! The humidity is a big factor. For most places in the USA, the repotting should be in early spring. But there are some really humid places in the USA like coastal Northern California and Oregon where I guess people could repot in summer time.
Having a greenhouse would help a lot, and might allow one to do things more year round. The nursery where I got this tree from would repot trees year round, even late into summer and fall, then place the trees in green house for them to recover.
Good day!

 

[Glider]

You're right, of course. The USA is a big place with huge climate variation across its area. People in areas that provides conditions in May/June the same or similar to Japan (i.e. that allow good recovery, particularly the high humidity), can basically follow the traditional Japanese timing. The main advantage is that you get to enjoy flowers the same year as repotting (which I don't, as in the UK, June is early summer and things really begin to dry out now, particularly in London & the South East).

The risk is that people read the books (written originally for azalea growers in Japan) and just take the information as a universal given. I suspect that has had a lot to do with azaleas getting their rep as a temperamental plant that's difficult to grow. They're really not.

Get the roots right and avoid repotting in Summer (if you don't have the right kind of climate) and they grow like weeds. They're almost impossible to kill without making a deliberate effort.

 

[bonhe]

Hi Si, according to my teacher's book, yours is Kaho. Like I told you, he could recognize more than 200 varieties by heart many years ago (he used to be a Satsuki show judge). He told me that the best time to transplant it was from March 15 till April 1st in Southern California (should not transplant nor food within a month before flowering - flowering time is from 5/15 to 6/10). He also taught me how to prune and care for Satsuki which I will organize my note and post it later on. Bonhe

 

[jonathan]

very nice satsuki indeed. Personally I find the nebari quite good and it has a beautiful trunk line and amazing flowers.

On a side note those posts 'bout the watering/akadama. I think that they would die faster cause of your water (check your lime percentage in your tapwater), cause I think that 'll kill your tree faster than 1 year of decomposed soil. Although your drainage 'll be bad with decomposed soil aswell probably causing root rot.

greets jona.