Scots Pine - What to do, is it worth it?

[Vance Wood]

In order to do what you want to do is going to take a number of years regardless of what technique you decide to use. I would suggest getting hold of some Scots Pine seeds or seedlings and approach graft them to the base of the tree around the circumference of the tyre like the spokes on a wheel. Of course if you start with the seeds you will have to germinate them first, the seedlings will be quicker if you can find them.l

 

[Paradox]

Gota love the internet. I've found a couple of potential sources for seedlings already.

Do you think it would be best to use the base as it is or try to get roots above the graft?

 

[Vance Wood]

Gota love the internet. I've found a couple of potential sources for seedlings already.

Do you think it would be best to use the base as it is or try to get roots above the graft?

Understanding that as you have said this tree was buried in the nursery container below the graft what I have in mind should not be a problem. If you need advise on how to do this we can discuss it provided someone else does not think this a bad idea. I would graft above the original graft.

 

[Martin Sweeney]

Paradox,

Have you actually checked the current roots and determined that they are hopeless? Is the graft that bad? Are you wanting to experiment with advanced techniques?

I ask because the tree appears, in the pictures at least, to have a good deal of potential. I ask because to my mind there is no guarantee that you will be able to create a new and/or better root base.

Regards,
Martin

 

[Vance Wood]

Paradox,

Have you actually checked the current roots and determined that they are hopeless? Is the graft that bad? Are you wanting to experiment with advanced techniques?

I ask because the tree appears, in the pictures at least, to have a good deal of potential. I ask because to my mind there is no guarantee that you will be able to create a new and/or better root base.

Regards,
Martin

If the new root base is accomplished with approach grafted seedlings the new root base will absolutely be better than the existing one. If you go back to the original photographs you see a clear difference between the scion and the stock. As far as grafts go it is not too bad but the problem here is that the bark and texture of the trunk is so significantly different that the two will never be visually compatible from the perspective of a bonsai. This is what leads me to believe that this cultivar is bouvonensis with its exfoliating paper like bark and the base is probably plain old Scots Pine.

 

[Paradox]

Sorry guys I had a long and busy work day yesterday so could not respond.

It is a Dwarf Scots Pine; Pinus sylvestris 'glauca nana'. It did lose a lot of bark in the process of repotting and its regrowing that bark currently.

@ Martin: If you look closely at the close up pics of the base, you can see one root lying against the trunk. That's pretty much it for exposed roots. My goal here is to improve the tree as well as learn advanced techniques. I realize there is no guarantee in anything and the tree might die in the process.

Its true I could save myself a lot of trouble and just go buy a tree for $1000 or more if I wanted to spend that kind of money on one but I would like to learn the advanced techniques and the only way is to do them. To mee it seems best to learn on relatively cheap nursery trees that have potential. This guy wasn't cheap as far a nursery trees its size go but much less than a finished bonsai.

 

[Vance Wood]

Sorry guys I had a long and busy work day yesterday so could not respond.

It is a Dwarf Scots Pine; Pinus sylvestris 'glauca nana'. It did lose a lot of bark in the process of repotting and its regrowing that bark currently.

@ Martin: If you look closely at the close up pics of the base, you can see one root lying against the trunk. That's pretty much it for exposed roots. My goal here is to improve the tree as well as learn advanced techniques. I realize there is no guarantee in anything and the tree might die in the process.

Its true I could save myself a lot of trouble and just go buy a tree for $1000 or more if I wanted to spend that kind of money on one but I would like to learn the advanced techniques and the only way is to do them. To mee it seems best to learn on relatively cheap nursery trees that have potential. This guy wasn't cheap as far a nursery trees its size go but much less than a finished bonsai.

Grafted cultivars are seldom cheap, though in my opinion they are seldom worth the additional charge. JMO, and not meaning to be critical of your choice. I agree with your idea of starting with material you in a word or two can afford to lose if you screw up---and you will, somewhere down the road,---we all have----an continue to----screw up that is. Nursery material has it limitations to be sure but what you can learn from them will serve you better than trying to learn on expensive pre-bonsai that you are terrified to work on for fear of losing the tree.

By the way; approach grafting some Scots Pine seedlings to the base of this tree should not harm the tree other than make some scars where the grafts don't take. I assume you know how this is done?

 

[Paradox]

According to what I've found, I would cut a groove into the trunk parallel to the line of the trunk with the bottom of it near where I want the roots to be. I would take the seedling and cut its stem just above the roots down past the cambium but leave the seedling largely intact.

I would fit the seedling into the groove on trunk on the big tree and cover the area with grafting wax. Repeat the process around the trunk then bury the trunk and roots of all donors.

I would then wait, feed the tree and allow it to grow for a year or 2 and hope the seedlings fuse to the big tree. If/when they do fuse, cut the top part of the seedlings off and allow those roots to grow and expand before eventually cutting off the original trunk below the new roots.

Needs to be done in the spring.

 

[Vance Wood]

According to what I've found, I would cut a groove into the trunk parallel to the line of the trunk with the bottom of it near where I want the roots to be. I would take the seedling and cut its stem just above the roots down past the cambium but leave the seedling largely intact.

I would fit the seedling into the groove on trunk on the big tree and cover the area with grafting wax. Repeat the process around the trunk then bury the trunk and roots of all donors.

I would then wait, feed the tree and allow it to grow for a year or 2 and hope the seedlings fuse to the big tree. If/when they do fuse, cut the top part of the seedlings off and allow those roots to grow and expand before eventually cutting off the original trunk below the new roots.

Needs to be done in the spring.

I agree with one exception: I would wrap the base of the trunk where the grafts are set with sphagnum moss then bury with bonsai soil. It has been postulated that sphagnum has some natural hormones in it that are conducive to rooting. This seems to be evident to those who harvest Larch from boggy areas in Norther Michigan where the root systems on Larch seem to form layers one on top of another as the bog fills with more natural debris.

 

[tom tynan]

For a grafted Scots Pine - I do not think the graft union is that bad at all. I am surprised at the idea being suggested where Scots Pine whips with their own roots are grafted above the graft union and then after a number of years the lower part (below the original graft union) is removed. I have never seen this done - and this has a number of challenges to overcome itself. The new Scots pine whips will have different bark color and texture and you will need at least 3 to 4 - maybe more - to make this work. There will be a long growing period to get the whips to take, not to mention scars and callus on the sides of each whip. When the foliage on the whip is removed - another callous to deal with. How about the lack of taper of the new Scots pine seedlings on the main trunk ? This will take along time to build up mass as well. How about the joint between the seedling and the main trunk - I see an awkward transition there as well. Now you will have 3 or 4 vertical lines where new roots meet existing trunk - each calling out to the eye for a closer view.....

I understand that you did not realize there was a graft union - but why not just work with the best view - that shows the original graft union - with the best possible view. In my experience the way to create the smoothest transition is to have a branch closer to the graft union - or directly about the union. This helps to build some trunk mass right where there is often a funny transition. In time that lower branch can be jinned and this can help to take the eye off the graft union.

Yes - grafting is an advanced technique that we probably should all be learning and doing at some point - but the time and effort for this technique should be balanced against the tree itself. From my view - I would style this tree initially and then maybe plant it back in the ground. A tree that is planted back in the ground will grow faster and this well help to blend the graft union that is already there. I have done this with a Scots Pine "beuvronensis" and now 3 years after it was planted the graft union is still there but the transition much less noticeable. I often look at nurseries for pines and almost all pines available are grafted. It can take time and many trees to go thru until a smooth graft union is found - and sometimes it is not worth buying the tree. These grafted cultivars can run $200 to $300 depending on size - so the graft union better be good.

It is your tree and your decision of course, but I thought an opposing view from one who has been there might be worth reading.......Good Luck...Tom.

 

[Paradox]

The point of resurrecting this thread was to get discussion from others with experience with this species as to what might be options to develop better roots on this tree.

Vance and you both have experience with Scots.

I'm hoping to also hear from Gary Wood and anyone else that might have some experience with scots.
Don't think Gary has been back since the nebari thread was discussed.

 

[Vance Wood]

The point of resurrecting this thread was to get discussion from others with experience with this species as to what might be options to develop better roots on this tree.

Vance and you both have experience with Scots.

I'm hoping to also hear from Gary Wood and anyone else that might have some experience with scots.
Don't think Gary has been back since the nebari thread was discussed.

There is one other method you might consider and that is air layering the trunk. This can be risky depending on how you do it and regardless of how it will take a good deal of time, maybe three or four years. Then there is the issue of how well does Bouvronensis do when grown on it's own roots, a critical question searching for an answer.

 

[Paradox]

If I do go ahead with anything, Ill do the approach grafting. Its much less risky IMO.

 

[Paradox]

Also, for anyone that has not seen this method described before, it is detailed in the beginning of John Naka's Bonsai Techniques II. I just got it the other day and he talks about shortening a trunk by grafting seedlings to a trunk, and once the roots take (a few years) severing the old trunk below.

 

[Paradox]

Anyway, there's still lots of time until spring.

Additional discussion welcome if anyone has any.

 

[Paradox]

Ok here is the update as promised. I have been reducing branches slowly over the last 2-3 years. I am really taking it slow to give the tree the best chance to adjust and survive this procedure. So far, so good.

Here is the tree as it looks as a whole today. Sorry the pics are kind of rough, but it is the best I could do considering my platform is the back of my truck.

Note: I deliberately show this angle for a reason. The tree is still pretty rough and more reduction in branches is needed and will happen over the next 2 years.

 

[Paradox]

Here I covered the sacrifice branches and rotated the tree a bit and you can see where I am going. These two pics are at slightly different angles. I cant really take a pic from the other side as the rest of the tree is still in the way.

 

[Adair M]

So...

Is the plan to change the planting angle and turning it into a semi-cascade?


I have to admit, I didn't see this coming. Very creative!

My only advice is I think you would have better success with your wiring efforts if you used copper wire. The aluminum you have isn't strong enough to do what I see you trying to do. Doubling up with aluminum is not as effective as a single properly sized copper wire.

 

[Paradox]

Hey Adair, yeah I didnt see that coming either when I first started working on the tree.
I originally was going to cut that lower branch off, but it has some really nice twists in it and one day thought it actually looked pretty good (actually better than the original plan) so went this route. I might try grafting a branch a bit closer to the trunk on it.

Yes I know copper is better, I just didnt have the copper on hand at the time. I order most of my wire from Stone Lantern and they mostly have aluminum these days it seems.
I plan on looking for and stocking copper this year.

 

[Dav4]

Definitely headed in the right direction now. Good eye and good job.