Seedling identification- jack pine vs lodge pole pine

[Gaitano]

In 2019-2020 I started a batch of seeds, jack pine Pinus banksiana and lodge pole pine pinus contorta latifolia. Over the past few years the labels and markers have faded and I have no idea which is which. Anybody familiar with either who can help identify one or the other?

One has smaller, thinner, greener and more candles, with finer needles. The other had fewer or a single candle with thicker needles, more like a black pine.

Thanks for looking!

 

[Potawatomi13]

Lodgepole have fairly short thicker needles. Only last tree might be one AFAIK. Mature bud color/shape "may" help.

 

[Shibui]

The few P. banksiana I've seen have very short needles, like under an inch long. Not sure if thy have longer needles as juveniles but most of those seedlings appear to have long needles.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

The few P. banksiana I've seen have very short needles, like under an inch long. Not sure if thy have longer needles as juveniles but most of those seedlings appear to have long needles.

I have a couple seedlings, in the best conditions their needles can be 10cm.
In the worst conditions, about spruce needle length.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Hmm? Shade can make SOME difference however all Lodgepoles in personal experience had about 2" or less needles, darker green, pretty sturdy, somewhat twisty. Do not know Jack pine.


















ot very fine at all

 

[Gaitano]

I appreciate everyone looking. The seedlings with the more chartreuse color seem to have more twisty needles. I’ll have to look more closely to see if any have noticeably shorter needles overall. I have three in the ground I will check out.

I’m going to start a few seeds this year that I know are jack pine. Maybe by the end of the year or next year I’ll be able to make a comparison.

 

[MaciekA]

If it helps, in my experience contorta pushes needles before just about all other pines I have, regardless of ambient conditions, and they all go at almost precisely the same time regardless of which subgroup of contorta they're part of (murrayana, latifolia, or contorta (shore) ). Are you able to group the early pushers and see if they share common attributes?

Also, pollen cones might help make the distinction as well, though banksiana and contorta are so darn close that maybe not.

Another thing:

Even within contorta, when you become a real lodgepole/shore nerd, you notice quite a bit of diversity in characteristics, so I would hunt for anything that can reliably disambiguate these two and be super careful in relying on observations like "under 2 inch needles" and attributes that can easily be wildly different due to cultivation / vigor. I have lodgepoles both with needles far longer than 2 inches and also far shorter (note: no disrespect to @Potawatomi13 who is sharing valuable data points) . I feel like the seed cone is the way to go, but in bonsai cultivation you might not see those very often unless you get them very vigorous. Even with the seed cone though, I feel like there is sometimes more difference in seed cone apperance between subgroups of contorta than there is between contorta and banksiana, so again, be cautious!

 

[Gaitano]

Here’s something interesting. I looked at the needles and fascicles and the pines with the light green candles had two needles per fascicle and most were splayed open like a V. The other pines with the more cream colored candles had 3 needles per fascicle

 

[Shibui]

I just checked some descriptions.
P. banksiana appears to have 2 needles.
P. contorta also has 2 needles but there's mention of a form from the Yukon that has a high proportion of 3 needles. Different subspecies have different growth habit and different colored needles.

There are other 3 needle pines - P. ponderosa, P. radiata are a couple I'm aware of. There may be others. It is not unknown for seed companies to make mistakes in naming seed packets.
Unfortunately it is notoriously difficult to ID young pines based on needle characteristics alone. You may just have to grow all these as 'pines'

 

[Potawatomi13]

Could 3 needle ones be Loblolly? If so can produce 2nd, sometimes 3rd flush of growth in single season. May be identifying tell tale. One other possibility could be seeds sent were bungeana instead of banksiana which would make 3 needle seedlings Lacebark pines.

 

[Gaitano]

I bought the seeds from Sheffield’s Seed Co which seems like a reputable source. Looking at the website I believe the seedlings with the double needles splayed open is the jack pine.

 

[Potawatomi13]

I bought the seeds from Sheffield’s Seed Co which seems like a reputable source. Looking at the website I believe the seedlings with the double needles splayed open is the jack pine.

Agreed they seem a reputable company. However sometimes "employees" make mistakes. Especially if wearing mask and having foggy glasses.

 

[Shibui]

Mistakes are not only at the retail/packing end.
Most seed retailers rely on seed collected by third party contract collectors or wholesalers. Some of those suppliers may be inexperienced or not as careful as the end user would like.
There are many steps in supply of seed, tree seed in particular, so its not surprising if occasional mistakes occur.
No implying that has definitely happened here but always be aware of the possibility, especially when something that does not look like it should germinates..

 

[PA_Penjing]

I have grown both of these species from seed. You will know 100% for certain this fall, or at least I will so update the thread. But in the meantime .. I'm fairly certain the darker green first photo is Jack pine and the second lighter photo is contorta. I say that with 95% certainty. The banksiana needles will get smaller with time, lots of sun and very little fertilizer when you start growing stuff you'll keep. The candles on my 6" banksiana seedlings were 11" long. Very vigorous when young

 

[PA_Penjing]

For what it's worth I also got my seeds from sheffields, they are as advertised. I have gripes with that company but they at least get the species correct

 

[Shibui]

The banksiana needles will get smaller with time, lots of sun and very little fertilizer when you start growing stuff you'll keep. The candles on my 6" banksiana seedlings were 11" long. Very vigorous when young

Some species have juvenile foliage that is quite different from adult foliage which I mentioned as a possibility in post #3. I have not grown either of these from seed so good to know P .banksiana has long juvenile foliage.

 

[PA_Penjing]

Some species have juvenile foliage that is quite different from adult foliage which I mentioned as a possibility in post #3. I have not grown either of these from seed so good to know P .banksiana has long juvenile foliage.

Yes, I fed mine heavily too so my needles were even longer by a few inches haha. I'm realizing now it's probably juvenile growth but they thicken and shorten pretty quickly

 

[Gaitano]

Good information. I did feed them well the first two years. I do have three in the ground that do not get fertilizer so I may get photos of those.

You will know 100% for certain this fall,

What is it about fall? The opening of the summer candles?

 

[Gaitano]

Photos of the two in ground…

 

[PA_Penjing]

The buds of a banksiana are covered in resin, not right away. But I imagine it might start happening this fall. The pictures of the trees in the ground look like jack/banksiana. Vigor matches too, they grow explosively at that age. Not every pine species gets candles extending out the sides of its candles. Very good species to grow from seed