Should i restart this chinese elm?
- Thread starter sebfer55
- Start date
zita
Mame
congrats!! it does look great.
Lets hope for rebudding a few more lower branches.
Lets hope for rebudding a few more lower branches.
sebfer55
Sapling
zita
Mame
hmm may be a good idea to chop one side off and wire the other.
You cant do much wrong as long as you keep the lower branches atm.
Depends really also at what you want to look at the next week and monthes.
i would hope for a new bud just below that as a future leader.
Very difficult to predict when the ideal time is for a chop to support that idea.
Waiting is always an option.
You cant do much wrong as long as you keep the lower branches atm.
Depends really also at what you want to look at the next week and monthes.
i would hope for a new bud just below that as a future leader.
Very difficult to predict when the ideal time is for a chop to support that idea.
Waiting is always an option.
sebfer55
Sapling
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Looks good so far.
You can expect lots of new buds all around and near the 2 cuts. That's how Chinese elms respond to pruning. I would be rubbing all new buds off from around the lower cut as you don't want any more branches there.
One or 2 new branches at or near the upper cut site would be good so let up to 5 buds that appear to be in suitable positions grow. Rub all others off as soon as you can get at them. Allow those new chosen new shoots to grow 6-10 leaves then choose the best placed and remove any others.
As mentioned earlier, I would also have chopped the lower branches at this stage.
I can see the point of leaving them to grow if the trunk needs to thicken and you don't plan to use those lower branches in the final design But, if those branches are to be part of the new bonsai, there are several points from my experience:
1. If allowed to grow free to help thicken the trunk the branches are likely to be way too thick to match the trunk and design so will need to be chopped off and replaced - long term project, especially for lower branches which always seem to develop and thicken slower than upper parts of apical dominant trees.
2. Lower branches don't respond to chops as well if there's a strong apex. Nor do they grow and ramify as quick if there's a strong apex above so rebuilding lower branches after developing an apex is usually frustratingly slow.
Interested to hear @zita experience and responses to this.
You can expect lots of new buds all around and near the 2 cuts. That's how Chinese elms respond to pruning. I would be rubbing all new buds off from around the lower cut as you don't want any more branches there.
One or 2 new branches at or near the upper cut site would be good so let up to 5 buds that appear to be in suitable positions grow. Rub all others off as soon as you can get at them. Allow those new chosen new shoots to grow 6-10 leaves then choose the best placed and remove any others.
As mentioned earlier, I would also have chopped the lower branches at this stage.
I can see the point of leaving them to grow if the trunk needs to thicken and you don't plan to use those lower branches in the final design But, if those branches are to be part of the new bonsai, there are several points from my experience:
1. If allowed to grow free to help thicken the trunk the branches are likely to be way too thick to match the trunk and design so will need to be chopped off and replaced - long term project, especially for lower branches which always seem to develop and thicken slower than upper parts of apical dominant trees.
2. Lower branches don't respond to chops as well if there's a strong apex. Nor do they grow and ramify as quick if there's a strong apex above so rebuilding lower branches after developing an apex is usually frustratingly slow.
Interested to hear @zita experience and responses to this.
Sifika
Seedling
Address any issues you have now. The tree will be back budding massively if its healthy so use that to do it all in one go now. Especially when its in the top of the tree where its strongest!
sebfer55
Sapling
Well i was tempted to do this while i was chopping away... so you think its best to chop lower banches kinda matching my virt plan? Maybe that is the way to go since im happy with the trunk thickness
sebfer55
Sapling
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
Before
After
After
sebfer55
Sapling
How many years?
Gabler
Masterpiece
I'm no master, but that's approximately what I would have done.
sebfer55
Sapling
At the risk of being a pest, could you guys guide me on the correct way to generate good branching for this tree?
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Not a pest. Please keep asking great questions.
In general, developing good branching involves grow and cut. Allow new shoots to grow. How long and how big will vary depending on how much thickness you need on the branch and how far advanced the branch is. Then cut back to 2 or 3 leaves (nodes). New buds will grow from the base of each leaf stalk. Repeat until branch is developed to sufficient size and density. Toward the end you may need to change tack and begin to thin out some secondary or tertiary or replace ever thick or over long terminal shoots with better side shoots - but cross that bridge when you get there.
Don't be tempted to grow branches to full length in one season. That will invariably produce branches similar to what you had before - long, bare with cluster of foliage at the ends. Accept it will take a couple of years to achieve a better result and continue with grow and chop.
Initially it might be grow all year and chop once. As the branch develops further you might get 2 or 3 chops per year. Lower branches need to be longer and thicker. Will probably need to allow more grow and longer between chops to develop those. Upper branches generally grow quicker so will probably need more chops and move to thinning sooner than lower branches.
This is a Chinese elm so you need to watch out for multiple buds after pruning. Chinese elm and Japanese maple both tend to produce clusters of buds after hard pruning. If all allowed to grow will quickly thicken and produce inverse taper. Always try to thin bud clusters to 1 or 2 at any point as soon as you notice.
sebfer55
Sapling
ty for your nice input! will try to do some branch planning with this method in mind.
I was rereading Naka’s book today looking for references on the topic and I found these interesting images about branch design. What I notice and what raises doubts is that, in general, he leaves a long main branch from which several secondary branches and then tertiary ones emerge. I’ve seen this topic discussed in some videos and I understand there are two ways to do it: a long branch with several secondaries, or producing two new branches every two internodes. Which is the best way for a Chinese elm?
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Sifika
Seedling
To try and understand this myself I have been following finding and following some long term projects on YouTube to see how they do this. This playlist is one of the good ones I've found. Might help you.
zita
Mame
I could only agree and underline everything you wrote.
But: lets say succsess in general is doing little and gaining much
this looks like doing lots and gaining little. (as for the particular tree)
with "little" i mean yes, thouse branches will look better after rebuilding but will always be sitting close together in the already overpowered middle of the trunk.
As a whole it will look like a negative graft.....a nebari that did not keep up with the upper part and branches that are thicker than the trunk.
So, eventually, after doing lots, thouse branches would need to be chopped off and the only gain would be that the trunk had thicken a little.
And if that was the goal, the ex-existing lower branches would have just been started to be effective to do that, 2 or three years ahead of what now are little stumps.
Of course, that would have involved layering after to get rid of the lower part and make the middle part to become the nebari.
zita
Mame
nice job!
zita
Mame
looks cool now, but the ex branches should be chopped off completely, just as in the pic from @Bonsainuts.
Starting new set of branches from scretch now at different locations
sebfer55
Sapling
Ok, chopping again!
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