Small pot, rootball and surface area

[ConorDash]

‘Ello

I have a Wych elm which is quite further along in development. It was bought in its current pot which is more of a “final” pot I guess, which is new to me. Everything I have is in big training pots..

My concern is water penetrating the roots, and it having enough water throughout a day.
Here’s a pic for ref and it’s thread:

https://flic.kr/p/2ecbQ6v
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/wych-elm-ulmus-glabra-stumpy.34141/

It keeps moss on top at all times to help with hydration of the tree, it’s planted in akadama. So it is free draining.
I find when I water it, the surface is so small that the surface tension is enough to push away water so it’s needs watering multiple times and very carefully to ensure water drains through.

Basically, any tips to help or advice with this? It’s just started to concern me more as summer approaches.
Thanks,

 

[Shibui]

I'm not sure how surface tension pushes water away. My little ones absorb water readily enough but can't hold enough to last all day so all the small pots sit on a 'humidity tray'
Use any tray that holds water. Mine are mostly shallow - around 2" deep. Fill with stones or gravel right to the top. Pot sits on the gravel. When you water the tree the tray fills with water but the pot is above water level so not waterlogged. Water evaporating from the tray helps cool the tree and reduces the amount of water it needs. Some species grow roots out the drain holes and into the water tray under - no problem and they have access to even more water.
If the pots still dry out too much I nestle the pot into the stones a little so the water can wick up into the pot for a few hours each day.
This works well in my relatively dry summer climate.

For just a few small pots a large plastic pot tray is suitable. I have more than a few small bonsai so I have a tray made from 'cliplock' roof decking folded so it holds water. Deeper basins should also be suitable but you'll need more gravel to fill them.

 

[sorce]

A finer rosette and slightly warmer water slightly longer.

I have one I have to toothpick quite often to know penetration is good.

Nice. I missed this one too I reckon, since 2018.

Sorce

 

[ConorDash]

I'm not sure how surface tension pushes water away. My little ones absorb water readily enough but can't hold enough to last all day so all the small pots sit on a 'humidity tray'
Use any tray that holds water. Mine are mostly shallow - around 2" deep. Fill with stones or gravel right to the top. Pot sits on the gravel. When you water the tree the tray fills with water but the pot is above water level so not waterlogged. Water evaporating from the tray helps cool the tree and reduces the amount of water it needs. Some species grow roots out the drain holes and into the water tray under - no problem and they have access to even more water.
If the pots still dry out too much I nestle the pot into the stones a little so the water can wick up into the pot for a few hours each day.
This works well in my relatively dry summer climate.

For just a few small pots a large plastic pot tray is suitable. I have more than a few small bonsai so I have a tray made from 'cliplock' roof decking folded so it holds water. Deeper basins should also be suitable but you'll need more gravel to fill them.

Yeh I’m aware of the trays.. hmm just thinking, I don’t tend to see others with trays.

The moss when dry, needs time and wetting to accept water, otherwise just rolls off first time I water.
Thanks for info,

 

[Tieball]

Okay....I’m just wondering....because I had this happen to me awhile ago. When you say it drains well....I thought of a problem I discovered. In my case...I thought the water was draining well....however, the water was actually “channeling” so to speak. My container was packed full of roots. The water would hold for a moment on top and then drain. I thought...draining very well. However, roots were not really getting a thorough watering. The water created a channel through the substrate with the help of a few roots...water in...water out....any watering followed the same channel each time....draining but not watering well. A lot of the roots were not really watered...and the substrate seemed to often look dry (actually because it was dry). I finally pulled the tree out at the appropriate time, pruned roots (the container was packed full) and in the process of replanting agitated the new substrate enough to eliminate channels....so watering better pulled water and air to all the roots. I also added lava rock into the substrate mix because I like the thousands of tiny holes that held traces of water below the surface longer during the day....without the roots sitting in to much moisture.

My wondering is....Is your smaller size pot full of roots? There’s a lot of excellent growth on top which usually means lots of roots below. You might check it out at the right time. Just channeling thoughts from a problem I found....I don’t know if it applies to your tree or not...but I thought worth a mention.

 

[TomB]

Yeh I’m aware of the trays.. hmm just thinking, I don’t tend to see others with trays.

I use them for my smaller trees. Like this one.

The moss when dry, needs time and wetting to accept water, otherwise just rolls off first time I water.

So get rid of it. It's causing a problem.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I know Dav4 would sit his goji into a larger pot for purpose of helping with watering issues I assumed. You just want to set this pot into another one. Unsure what he used in the larger pot for substrate.

 

[Shibui]

Dry mix will repel water. When hand watering I water twice. 1st water wets the surface. Second water soaks in deeper. Some Japanese sources recommend watering 3 times. I assume that is for this reason.
@Tieball suggests being pot bound. I have found this all too often. Very small bonsai need to be repotted every year or I see decline over summer. Shoo-in trees now grow much better.

 

[ConorDash]

I use them for my smaller trees. Like this one.



So get rid of it. It's causing a problem.

Ok good points made, I’ve got a small shallow circular dish I could use.
I think I’ll take off moss for now and see.. I had just applied a month ago.
It’s leaves are just unfolding so nows the time that water will be used fast.

Dry mix will repel water. When hand watering I water twice. 1st water wets the surface. Second water soaks in deeper. Some Japanese sources recommend watering 3 times. I assume that is for this reason.
@Tieball suggests being pot bound. I have found this all too often. Very small bonsai need to be repotted every year or I see decline over summer. Shoo-in trees now grow much better.

This is possible. I’ve asked previous owner when it was repotted. Too late in year now to repot so will have to make do. It’s wired in to the pot so not easy to lift and inspect.

 

[rockm]

Ok good points made, I’ve got a small shallow circular dish I could use.
I think I’ll take off moss for now and see.. I had just applied a month ago.
It’s leaves are just unfolding so nows the time that water will be used fast.



This is possible. I’ve asked previous owner when it was repotted. Too late in year now to repot so will have to make do. It’s wired in to the pot so not easy to lift and inspect.

Ok good points made, I’ve got a small shallow circular dish I could use.
I think I’ll take off moss for now and see.. I had just applied a month ago.
It’s leaves are just unfolding so nows the time that water will be used fast.



This is possible. I’ve asked previous owner when it was repotted. Too late in year now to repot so will have to make do. It’s wired in to the pot so not easy to lift and inspect.

Welcome to the world of mame--The smaller the tree, the more work and maintenance is required. Watering is a big issue for them, especially in the spring. Instead of the humidity tray, you might consider a tray of sand (with drainage holes on the bottom), with the sand deep enough to cover the outside of the pot. The idea is to wet the sand down, push the tree into it (making sure there's room for the pot to drain underneath). The sand retains water around the pot and inside it...the idea is basically mulching like in winter, only in spring/summer. The moisture retained slows evaporation from the pot.

 

[Stan Kengai]

It can be tough to get thorough water penetration in small pots. After the first flush of spring growth has hardened off, I bottom water shohin plants once a week through the end of summer.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Consider a drip irrigation system. Create two or three separate lines so you can have different watering frequencies depending on the size of your bonsai. Then you can put a small drip irrigater into the pot and have it watered three times per day whether you are there or not.

 

[0soyoung]

I note that the growing season climate in Essex is similar to mine. I sit my mame (as small as 1 inch pots) on humidity trays filled with turface fines or sand. I water the works, and keep them in partial shade, especially in mid-afternoon when the air is always driest. Rice bowl size and larger pots don't need anything extra for me, but I typically am watering my entire collection in mid-afternoon. I have nested stuff in a larger pot of substrate. This works effectively, but I don't do it because of the small space I have available - I can array small plants in a smaller space on the fines-filled trays.

Alternatively, 'full-bore shohin guys' tell me that they choose to submerge their pots because sprinkling just doesn't work effectively with the small ring of exposed substrate. I'm surprised this would be necessary with what I see in the pic, but maybe try immersion instead of or in addition to normal sprinkling.

 

[ConorDash]

Okay....I’m just wondering....because I had this happen to me awhile ago. When you say it drains well....I thought of a problem I discovered. In my case...I thought the water was draining well....however, the water was actually “channeling” so to speak. My container was packed full of roots. The water would hold for a moment on top and then drain. I thought...draining very well. However, roots were not really getting a thorough watering. The water created a channel through the substrate with the help of a few roots...water in...water out....any watering followed the same channel each time....draining but not watering well. A lot of the roots were not really watered...and the substrate seemed to often look dry (actually because it was dry). I finally pulled the tree out at the appropriate time, pruned roots (the container was packed full) and in the process of replanting agitated the new substrate enough to eliminate channels....so watering better pulled water and air to all the roots. I also added lava rock into the substrate mix because I like the thousands of tiny holes that held traces of water below the surface longer during the day....without the roots sitting in to much moisture.

My wondering is....Is your smaller size pot full of roots? There’s a lot of excellent growth on top which usually means lots of roots below. You might check it out at the right time. Just channeling thoughts from a problem I found....I don’t know if it applies to your tree or not...but I thought worth a mention.

Yeh I get ya. It’s wired in to the pot at the moment so lifting out isn’t so easy but I’ll try when I can.

I did find an elm where I watered thoroughly, looked like it was being absorbed, and draining through but lifted it and 80% of it was bone dry soil.. also had white deposits, broke in to dust when touched.
I submerged the whole thing.

 

[Tieball]

Yeh I get ya. It’s wired in to the pot at the moment so lifting out isn’t so easy but I’ll try when I can.

I did find an elm where I watered thoroughly, looked like it was being absorbed, and draining through but lifted it and 80% of it was bone dry soil.. also had white deposits, broke in to dust when touched.
I submerged the whole thing.

Yup....that’s what I discovered. All along I thought I was watering and it was draining well. Thought I had it made. But. There was really a small creek that flowed directly from the surface to the drain hole. In-and-out. I learned. Periodically now....I poke holes randomly to agitate the substrate.