So Cal/Central Cal Azaleas-Yamano Hikari, Kazan, Eikan and Takasago

[yenling83]

I just finished reading the most current Golden Statements which mentions briefly that So Cal is not the greatest spot for growing Azaleas however these varieties are the best for the environment: Yamano Hikari, Kazan, Eikan and Takasago

*Anyone know where to purchase any of these varieties-both young trees/whips or more mature trees?

*Any So Cal members have any success with these or any others? I'd love to see some pictures if you have any. Thanks

 

[Harunobu]

N California is a great place for growing azalea and satsuki. One of the better places outside of Japan. So Cal is I think on the hotter side. Those cultivar are quite old. I don't know what So Cal people grow. I'll PM you the name of someone who can give you some info on your local situation. Not sure if he can actually help you directly or not.

But there's Nuccio's, Monrovia and Sonoma nurseries in California. Those are big names I as a Dutch person know about that specialize in azalea and have a wide range of them. I wish I could buy all that in Europe. But what we have were are easy import regulations for satsuki bonsai from Japan and a few very decidcated hobbyists. I think we have a bit of an edge of the US in having ther really new cultivar. I think all plants going to the US need to be in quarantine for a long time and then bare rooted and transported with zero soil.

But gardening-wise conserning azalea, they are much much popular in the US. Here in Europe azalea are a bit uncommon while I have been told they are staple in the parts of the US where they grow well.
Rhododendron much more popular here. You see them everywhere.

 

[Smoke]

Try Scott Chad at Lotus Bonsai, he had these at the shohin convention. They were really nice little plants, shohin size but still had 1.5 inch and larger trunks.


http://www.lotusbonsai.com/

 

[Smoke]

California is a great place for growing azalea and satsuki. One of the better places outside of Japan. So Cal is I think on the hotter side. Those cultivar are quite old. I don't know what So Cal people grow. I'll PM you the name of someone who can give you some info on your local situation. Not sure if he can actually help you directly or not.

But there's Nuccio's, Monrovia and Sonoma nurseries in California. Those are big names I as a Dutch person know about that specialize in azalea and have a wide range of them.

I have no idea where your source of information comes from but Ca. is not a hotbed of satsuki azalea. 90 percent of azalea in Ca. are sun azalea's not indicum. All those nurseries are in the upper third of Ca. where it stays a little cooler but very few nurseries south of Sacramento sell indicum. Gondo, a master from Japan taught at El Dorado nursery, not far from Scott Chads place I recommended above. He brought in indicums from Japan, much like those that Scott is selling. They were sold off to hapless buyers easily parted with their money, unfortunatly all of those plants are no where to be seen in coutless collections around California.

You are not talking to a noob here when talking about bonsai in California. There is not many people around doing bonsai for more than twenty years that I don't know. I know what I speak of. Any fool wishing to spend big money for a pretty indicum in Ca. might as well buy a larch too. That way they can go to bonsai heaven together.

 

[Harunobu]

The azalea nuseries in the US that I know that sell satsuki are in California. Sonoma Hort, Nuccio's, Monrovia. i crawled the web searching for what is fore sale outside of Japan. The best I found where those 3 nurseries which have excellent stock of all kinds of types of azalea, including indicum and satsuki. (indicum type azalea and satsuki type azalea are actually different)
Here in Europe you can't find that stuff even in countries with similar climates. For the handful of nurseries that specialize in azalea, they only have one or two that are satuski. Azalea are just not well known enough. California has hybridizers and an active society. Here in Europe there barely is a satsuki azalea movement. The azalea people here that we do have don't know about satsuki it seems. Maybe because they can't be forced like belgian indica's and they are too cold tender in areas like N Germany where they love to grow all kinds of rhododendron.
Only bonsai people seem to know about them.

What do you think is the no.1 satsuki hotspot outside of Asia?


You are talking bonsai, it seems. Donno about that.

 

[M.B.]

Hey Al, did you forget we have an azalea club in Sacramento? They even have a show in May that have some gorgeous blooms/trees all grown in the Sacramento area. Although we usually get colder in the winter I think we are often close to your high temps in the summer.
I would try Maruyamas bonsai nursery in Sacramento for azaleas that do well in the heat. Mr and Mrs Maruyama have a very nice selection. I think it was last year or the year before they imported some huge trunked trees. Not cheap but I don't know anywhere around here you could find numerous pre styled bonsai azaleas for sale with 4-5 inch trunks. I think those trees are sold now but depending what size and variety you are looking for, they would probably be able to help. They don't do mail order, that I know of, but maybe they might work something out. You also could come up to Sacramento in May for the Satsuki Aikokai show (I'd have to find the dates if you are interested). I think Mr. Maruyama is doing the demos that weekend and there are always all types/sizes for sale.
Mary B.

 

[Smoke]

An azalea club in Sacramento. While interesting it still does not negate the fact that California is not nearly the bastion of azalea growth made out to sound like. Remember California as a state has a population larger than the whole population of Canada as a country. A couple clubs with maybe a hundred trees is hardly the azalea hub of the Western world.

While you may have some super hot summer heat, what you have that we don't have is the delta nights. They make it down as far as Modesto but we get nothing. Not uncommon for us to be 103 degrees at 2 AM here in the summer.

 

[Smoke]

, including indicum and satsuki. (indicum type azalea and satsuki type azalea are actually different)




You are talking bonsai, it seems. Donno about that.

Have a link that says indicum and satsuki is different? ( seeems you know about as much about azaleas as you do American politics.) Satsuki is not a varity, it is a Japanese term indicating the month in which they bloom. The fifth month. Look up the Japanese term for fifth month. The prized varital for bonsai is Indicum. I have no clue what you grow in Belgium. Probably not bonsai though.

Try again. Amaze me some more with your technical skills at plant nomenclature. The man is asking a question on a bonsai forum about plants for bonsai. "Donno about that" is obvious.

 

[Harunobu]

Dude, don't get you being butthurt about not being able to defend your country's flawed politics into this. R.indicum is a species. Satsuki are hybrids. In the west they don't mean the same thing. They don't use the term R.indicum in Japan. They don't use any scientific name for any plant species. You should know this is you do bonsai.

Europe has 20 times more people living in it than California. Yet I know of more placed to buy satsuki in California than in Europe. Here the nursery most specialized in evergreen azalea label non-satsuki as satsuki and satsuki as non-satsuki. They don't even know what they are. In California they traveled to Kanuma decades ago to buy them.
There's not many places outside of Japan that have their own native strain of satsuki hybrids. Nuccio's satsuki-type hybrids are exactly that. One of the few satsuki you can find here is actually one of those. The Robin Hill ones are some other ones. About the only satsuki we have here are American, not Japanese and are thus not called 'satsuki'. That's why 'satsuki' in the west means something different that in does in Japan.

In the west we call 'Polypetalum' and 'Balsaminiflorum', R.indicum. In Japan those are called 'Kinsai' and 'Komane' and labeled satsuki. But they are R.indicum species selections, not hybrids. We call 'Sir Robert', a Robin Hill hybrid. We call 'Marian Lee' a Back Acres hybrid. We call 'Nuccio's Wild Cherry' a Nuccio hybrid. In Japan they would all call all that 'satsuki'. Note, they are all American, not European. There are no European satsuki-type hybrids. But we have plenty of kirishima, kurume, kiusianum, kaempferi and belgian indica varieties. Where in America azalea people know satsuki are some of the best azalea, European azalea people don't know much about them and have often never seen them.


He isn't asking about bonsai. He is asking about cultivar and about young plants of certain cultivar. Now they don't grow whips commercially outside of Japan, but that's a different issue.
There's plenty of places in California to buy them from and I gave him the email of the local expert. So don't know why you are so mad.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

He isn't asking about bonsai.

based on

I just finished reading the most current Golden Statements

(Golden Statements is a newsletter for GSBF [Golden State Bonsai Federation]) and the fact that _this_ is a bonsai forum....

I am going to suggest that asking about satsuki as bonsai ... was ... well, implied ....



as far as the rest of it goes..... Ya'll can fight that fight... I just grow em ....

 

[Harunobu]

Of course he is interested in bonsai. But he is asking about cultivar and where to get them.

Pfff...
I don't even get where this derailed. What does it even matter if it is bonsai or not?


This forum is really the most crazy bonsai forum online. Bonsai people have more attitude than gamers, hackers, 4chan people, or any other place online it seems. Pianists, chess players, those interested in debating politics or religion? Much more laid back.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

This forum is really the most crazy bonsai forum online. Bonsai people have more attitude than gamers, hackers, 4chan people, or any other place online it seems.

Some of us are gamers, hackers and 4chaners (actually I keep away from 4chan that place is nucking futs!)

 

[yenling83]

thank you everyone for replying.

 

[namnhi]

And you able to grow tridents with very little leaf burn. That is amazing.. what is the trick?

 

[M.B.]

An azalea club in Sacramento. While interesting it still does not negate the fact that California is not nearly the bastion of azalea growth made out to sound like. Remember California as a state has a population larger than the whole population of Canada as a country. A couple clubs with maybe a hundred trees is hardly the azalea hub of the Western world.

While you may have some super hot summer heat, what you have that we don't have is the delta nights. They make it down as far as Modesto but we get nothing. Not uncommon for us to be 103 degrees at 2 AM here in the summer.

Yep, your summer night temps suck. During the bad heat waves we at least get down to 90-95 at night. I don't know why anyone would want to live in that hellhole called Fresno
We may not be a hub for azaleas but I think we have quite a few imported and home/nursery grown trees around of excellent quality. I don't think it's a matter of wether they will grow in California but rather the number of longtime bonsai enthusiests that grow them. We have the oldest bonsai club in the US with many older Japanese members growing some for 40 plus years, El Dorado bonsai nursery (now closed) used to bring over a Japanese azalea expert for workshops and classes every year plus importing a fair amount over the years. And as mentioned, Maruyama's bonsai nursery has a large selection of varietes and sizes from cuttings on up and continue to import once in awhile. You should see their benches in April and May. Maybe I can get a picture next month.
M.B.

 

[Smoke]

based on

(Golden Statements is a newsletter for GSBF [Golden State Bonsai Federation]) and the fact that _this_ is a bonsai forum....

I am going to suggest that asking about satsuki as bonsai ... was ... well, implied ....



as far as the rest of it goes..... Ya'll can fight that fight... I just grow em ....

Do those you all grow have a botanical name....and that would be?

And you call it satsuki why?


This whole nonsense for those that do not know is along the same lines as Awagi black pines, Mikawa black pines, Shikoku black pines...all still just Pinus thumbergii.

 

[Smoke]

And you able to grow tridents with very little leaf burn. That is amazing.. what is the trick?

The trick is akadama. Period.

 

[Smoke]

Yep, your summer night temps suck. During the bad heat waves we at least get down to 90-95 at night. I don't know why anyone would want to live in that hellhole called Fresno
We may not be a hub for azaleas but I think we have quite a few imported and home/nursery grown trees around of excellent quality. I don't think it's a matter of wether they will grow in California but rather the number of longtime bonsai enthusiests that grow them. We have the oldest bonsai club in the US with many older Japanese members growing some for 40 plus years, El Dorado bonsai nursery (now closed) used to bring over a Japanese azalea expert for workshops and classes every year plus importing a fair amount over the years. And as mentioned, Maruyama's bonsai nursery has a large selection of varietes and sizes from cuttings on up and continue to import once in awhile. You should see their benches in April and May. Maybe I can get a picture next month.
M.B.

Yes, I mentioned this in post 4.

 

[Harunobu]

Hybrids are hybrids, species are species. A liger is neither a lion or a tiger. Mikawa JBP are P.thunbergii pines in the area that used to be called Mikawa Province. There is genetic diversity in any species and Japan is a thing stretched out country of many islands. But even for the biggest expert telling is an individual pine is a Mikawa kuromatsu or something else is always still guesswork.
Kotobuki black pines are clones of a certain bud mutation. It is a special cultivar of P.thunbergii. If Kotobuki was a bud mutation of a Mikawa JBP then all tree are JBP or P.thunbergii. All Mikawa pines are P.thunbergii and all Kotobuki are Mikawa pines.
This is also how you get dwarf forms. They are not species but cultivar of certain species. They may be found in the wild or not, but almost always they have no future there. That's also why all those dwarf forms of mugo pine and all those odd looking versions of irohamomiji are grafted on their ordinary species rootstock.
The only reason why there are millions individuals of the 'Mops' version of P.mugo is that someone saw this bud mutation and propagated it. Without humans right now we would have 0 'Mops'. It would probably be extinct.

Broccoli, cauliflower, brussel sprouts, cabbage, Chinese kale, ordinary kale, red cabbage, collard greens are all forms of Brassica oleracea species. None are hybrids. All are cultivated by humans from certain different species populations. Yet they are all different.
Durum wheat is called Triticum durum but originally a tetraploid hybrid of Triticum urartu and Aegilops speltoides. Triticum durum is not Triticum urartu.

'Sir Robert' is thus not R.indicum. All it's parents are hybrids and none of them look like the R.indicum species as it is found in the wild. Rather, the whole lineage looks a lot more like R.tamurae (old name R.eriocarpum). It looks more like 'Kaho' than like 'Kinsai'.
But in fact the Japanese call all azalea of western origin 'azarea' or 西洋ツツジ no matter how they look or what their parents are. They don't mean to disrespect and this isn't really a conscious decision on their part. But satsuki is their word and they apply it to their azalea.
What we do in the west often doesn't fit their categories and they don't feel like changing it in the same way they don't feel like using western botanical names for their own traditional plants.
In a same manner we don't call the most boring and mundane version of R.indicum found somewhere on a mountain 'satsuki'. To us satsuki are those stunning flowers we see on azalea bonsai. And R.indicum is that humble flowering scrub that grows in the Japanese mountains and that generally only western botanists care about.
But to the Japanese both are 'satsuki' since they don't have the word R.indicum. But really no one grows R.indicum in Japan. They all grow their cultivated azalea. They do grow their split petal forms or R.indicum, their rose petal forms of R.indicum, their tetraploid versions of R.indicum. This would be analogous to Kotobuki JBP and P.Thunbergii. But satsuki that appear to be special forms of R.indicum (we don't know for sure until someone analyses the genes in a laboratorium) make up only a very tiny amount. Most satsuki don't look anything like R.indicum, R.tamurae or even their natural hybrids.

We grow a lot of tulip and daffodil here in the Netherlands. That's what we are famous for. But Narcissus pseudonarcissus or Tulipa gesneriana, you will be hardpressed to find those anywhere outside of botanical gardens or labs.

 

[Klytus]

Mariners settled on the right whale and paid no heed to the academic jabberings of Linnaeus.