Soil Alternatives-Post them up

[drew33998]

Anyone tried this stuff? Seems fairly expensive in comparison to most. I wish there was a better description on what it is made of. Only says Kiln fired. Looks to be a clay type aggregate.

https://www.microbelift.com/product/concentrated-aquatic-planting-media/

 

[cbroad]

I got a free bag of stuff that looks like that, it's sold as a pond plant substrate. I think it was zeolite, but when I looked zeolite up it doesn't look like it, my stuff looks like turface...

Ok so it's 80% arcillite and 20% zeolite. When I touched the bag, it fell apart...

 

[cbroad]

The past few years I've been using Permatill, which is expanded slate. I'm not sure I'm liking it...

 

[bonsaidave]

Just to start off I am no help!
It looks like regular old calcined clay. The description is just a bunch of marketing talk.
"Ideal when potting aquatic plants" - says who? Says the marketing team.
"Enormous surface area" - as apposed to anything else that is the same shape and size?
"Allows mixing any ratio of loam to planting media" - Ya it's called mixing stuff together.
"Nontoxic" - Unless you eat a bunch of it. Challenge accepted!

I personally wouldn't support this company unless that stuff is Cheap.

 

[theone420]

Sounds harder than Akadama. It claims it will not break down or cloud the water. From my experience Akadama will breakdown over time. You can crush 2 wet pieces together and make clay pretty easily fresh out the the bag.

This blog changed my mind on Turface. https://crataegus.com/2013/11/24/life-without-turface/

 

[drew33998]

The past few years I've been using Permatill, which is expanded slate. I'm not sure I'm liking it...

Used it. The particles are too sharp and large and dont retain enough water for me

 

[drew33998]

I got a free bag of stuff that looks like that, it's sold as a pond plant substrate. I think it was zeolite, but when I looked zeolite up it doesn't look like it, my stuff looks like turface...

Ok so it's 80% arcillite and 20% zeolite. When I touched the bag, it fell apart...
View attachment 171484
View attachment 171485

zeolite i like. It has a high ph however, but i feel like it holds a bit more water than lava and is fairly hard. Wouldnt use it more than 1/3 of the soil composition though.

 

[drew33998]

Sounds harder than Akadama. It claims it will not break down or cloud the water. From my experience Akadama will breakdown over time. You can crush 2 wet pieces together and make clay pretty easily fresh out the the bag.

This blog changed my mind on Turface. https://crataegus.com/2013/11/24/life-without-turface/

Read that long ago. I feel that akadama just is not very sustainable for the long run. Not to mention when you hsve a hundred trees who can afford that except for someone very well off or someone that has the cost covered in a business plan.
Oil dry is for the birds. Cheap is the only thing it has going for it. Flatish soil particles, very small, holds a ton of water and not much air.

 

[theone420]

have you tried Optisorb?(I have not yet) what are your thoughts on it if you have? I hear it has larger particle size over #8822 if mixed with lava rock or pumice. Will that give you the air you need?

 

[BonsaiFurLife]

The past few years I've been using Permatill, which is expanded slate. I'm not sure I'm liking it...

What dont you like about it? Im using it at the moment also. The company stalite makes atleast 3 different sizes that ive tried. The stuff labeled permatil i have is more like crushed granite and the other bags which were not labeled are the slate. 10$ for 40lbs i think. Im also trying a 5$ 50 lb bag of supposedly crushed granite from lowes. Its the quikrete brand. I called around to find out what it was. They said it varies by location though so i would call before trying it as im sure they use limestone also.

 

[cbroad]

@Bonsaifurliife
I wish I had a good reason, but I really don't... I was very excited when I first tried it because it's near impossible to find pumice here and I'm still using it in some of my mixes and it's ok, but I had used it in some other mixes and the trees didn't do very well, could've entirely been other variables... I remember reading somewhere that Stalite said it had a neutral pH but someone tested a sample and it was very alkaline, something like a pH of 11.

What other sizes have you tried? I've only seen Permatill/Volebloc. I have a good friend that works for BFG, which is a huge hardgoods supplier for nurseries and greenhouses and he had been in contact with Stalite about producing a bonsai grade product, don't know whatever came of that...

 

[cbroad]

@drew33998
Yeah the stuff in my picture looks way too fine for normal bonsai use, but that's really the first time I looked at it since the bag fell apart...

 

[BonsaiFurLife]

@cbroad met a rep at the green n growing show one year and talked about bonsai. She said people were using the larger particles for "growing" bonsai and the smaller for " finished" bonsai. The vol block are the biggest. Then theres a size slightly smaller and the smallest size is about half the size of the middle size. This was about 5-6 years ago. I dont really have much experience with other substrates so cant really compare It to much And my plants are constantly in the struggle any how. But since its a nc company its fairly easy to come by.

 

[bonsaidave]

Be careful with crushed granite. It doesn't really hold any water or nutrients and it's heavy. I tried using it but didn't care much for it.
I liked expanded shale better. It is lighter, holds a tiny bit of water, and easier to prep (washing and sifting)

My cost saving measures: (not ideal but money is tight so I do what I must)
I add expanded shale and perlite to stretch my bonsai soil, about 10% of each to my soil mix.
I also use expanded shale as a very shallow drainage layer.

 

[cbroad]

@Bonsaifurliife
I think my biggest issue was I couldn't get like sized particles. The Permatill was the biggest (I liked the size) and then I used granite grit, turface, and sometimes pine bark chunks. So there was always some uneven settling going on. I tried Permatill with potting soil (who knows what else I threw in there at the time...) and I didn't like it, but that was probably a ratio problem. I had a ligustrum in there and it never made it, so now it's a catch-all but every thing is still growing in it after maybe 5 years???

I think the pH thing I heard kind of turned me off but who knows if that was true or not... I'm still in search of a perfect blend without breaking the bank, so right now most of my stuff is in potting soil mixed with tons of perlite, I don't have trees in bonsai pots

 

[cbroad]

Where does the Permatill fall in with the other grades? I always thought Permatill and Volebloc were the same size

 

[M. Frary]

This blog changed my mind on Turface. https://crataegus.com/2013/11/24/life-without-turface/

Bunk.

Oil dry is for the birds.

Some more bunk.

 

[Anthony]

@drew33998 , @cbroad , @cbroad , @bonsaidave , @theone420 ,@Bonsaifurliife

what you are after -----------

[1] The ball bearing principle ----------- see how same size marbles touch each other.
freely draining and lets fresh 02 in.

[2] If needed moisture retention/ also is fertiliser in solution retention.

[3] Particle size [ we use 5 mm ]

[4] Should not breakdown in use or form clays.

* Compost goes from fine particles to clumps as they age, same size as the inorganic
particles in the mix. Not powder with age.

Peat moss has to still compost ------ do an experiment to understand.

@twisted trees , says that is enough for you to understand.
More later when you have more experience.
Good Day
Anthony

An example for hand rolled 8 mm spheres [ fired earthenware clay, does not
break down and is moisture retentive, yet allows drainage and 02 in ]

Compost added to feed microbes and add nutrient.
Local willow leaf ficus

 

[It's Kev]

Back in South Africa when I had my big aquarium, I used pool filter sand as substrate. But it was a while back and I've forgotten what the consistency of it was like. Is there anyone using it to plant their trees in?

 

[Anthony]

@kevinlovett86 ,

from 1980 or so.

5 mm silica based gravel

if needed ------- for extra water retention, but within the structure - 5 mm crushed red eartheware
building block.

Plus aged compost ------------- left just moist in a barrel, weed seeds germinate and die.
By volume [ little spade ] no more than 30 %
Holds 20 times it's weight in water.

Checked on 30 year old trees - soil - no decay on the inorganics and no fat roots.

Simple soil mix, but it works well.
Good Day
Anthony

* Aha so that was gunk in your last image of a discovered Duranta.
Don't make me send a Shaolin monk to stick prayer papers on your
forehead

For penance.

For ficus -------- 90 % inorganic - 5 mm gravel
Note also grown to that trunk thickness in that pot.
Around 5 to 6 years.
Can supply more how to if you need, just ask.



Just for fun ------ graceful. All grow and clip = Ling Nan