Soil mix for young trees with aspirations to become bonsai years from now?

[Solaris]

I find perlite has the annoying tendency to float up out of the substrate when you water the plant.

 

[lwagner]

I find perlite has the annoying tendency to float up out of the substrate when you water the plant.

Same. I am trying to avoid it now.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

I find perlite has the annoying tendency to float up out of the substrate when you water the plant.

Hi Solaris,
So I have the floating thing like everyone else. How I combat that is to add a thin layer of pumice or potting mix. That stops the float thing. I love Perlite as it holds a bit of moisture and aerates the whole body of Soil mix so well.
We choose our own mixes I guess- mine is 80% pine bark (0-4mm), 10% Pumice (1-4 mm) and 10% Perlite (2-4mm). I use this mix as my “growing on mix for the years some of my trees need before even trying to refine.
Hope that helps @Iwagner also.
Charles

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

The goal I am shooting for is vigorous growth and refine later, that way trunk thickness and hopefully some nebari develop a little more quickly. What would you suggest in this case? The tree sizes currently are 8-16 inches.

Treat them as non-bonsai for a year in non-bonsai soil (or half/half), develop a feeling for them, devise a plan, revise the plan, keep them alive and thriving, and start collecting knowledge and materials so next year (or this fall) you can start doing some fun stuff.


6 months is a good time frame to see how they perform and respond. It's usually the time I take for "getting to know each other". In regular soils, there's a lot more room for errors. It's also a good way of checking if I can manage the summer care for that species. Some species respond bad to my regimes, so those die.. It's a hobby to me, not a job ;-)

 

[sorce]

Amen @JoeH !

Welcome to Crazy Bro!

The way I see it....

Each different soil and growth rate is going to turn into a completely different tree in the end. The only question is, can we see so far into the future to utilize this difference to our artistic advantage.

The Enjoyment Calculator.

Fast growth. +10. Finished tree in 5 years.
+20 satisfaction.

Slow growth. +5. Finished tree in 10 years.
+100

100-20=80

So even if you never grew the fast growing tree you enjoyment level after 10 years will still be greater.

But why not get the additional +20 for the fast grower too.
Or why not do a slow grow and reap that enjoyment later too!?

Point is there is NO wrong way.

We cant see that far into the future, we can only imagine it.

But to think you will not get enjoyment from a tree that grows slow is foolish.
I argue Stradivarius Bonsai are much more pleasing!

I think/know it is more important to begin practicing Everything now. Which pretty much requires a "finished" bonsai, if just to practice proper repotting..

And I'm not talking about putting a nursery tree in a basket....
I'm talking about finding good places to run wires over roots safely, tying things in at appropriate artistic angles, being comfortable with tree out of pot so you can calmly execute these tasks....

All this stuff can only be learned with direct experience.

No matter how long our growout is...

If we kill a tree at repot...

OR WORSE! Lol!

Not be able to properly display it...

It doesn't matter how long the effort was...
It was Futile!

#nofutile
#norules

Sorce

 

[Adamantium]

With all this talk of adding organics, I'm feeling kind of stupid for potting up most of my prebonsai in boon mix, and some in DE:Lava.

I even have a bag of cactus mix here that I opted not to use lol

 

[GrimLore]

I find perlite has the annoying tendency to float up out of the substrate when you water the plant.

Same. I am trying to avoid it now.

Hi Solaris,
So I have the floating thing like everyone else. How I combat that is to add a thin layer of pumice or potting mix. That stops the float thing. I love Perlite as it holds a bit of moisture and aerates the whole body of Soil mix so well.
We choose our own mixes I guess- mine is 80% pine bark (0-4mm), 10% Pumice (1-4 mm) and 10% Perlite (2-4mm). I use this mix as my “growing on mix for the years some of my trees need before even trying to refine.
Hope that helps @Iwagner also.
Charles

It also is a great help to simply soak the Perlite for an hour or two in water before adding to and using the mix, been doing that a few years with success.

Grimmy

With all this talk of adding organics, I'm feeling kind of stupid for potting up most of my prebonsai in boon mix, and some in DE:Lava.

I even have a bag of cactus mix here that I opted not to use lol

I respect your choice and obvious skills but for actual growing a well draining organic mix normally produces faster results. You work with very high quality stock nearly finished or at show... Yes, plants will grow in the same inorganics you are used to using in most everything you work on but hey organics work!

EDIT: I must add I am referring to rooted plants, not cuttings

Grimmy

 

[Adamantium]

It also is a great help to simply soak the Perlite for an hour or two in water before adding to and using the mix, been doing that a few years with success.

Grimmy



I respect your choice and obvious skills but for actual growing a well draining organic mix normally produces faster results. You work with very high quality stock nearly finished or at show... Yes, plants will grow in the same inorganics you are used to using in most everything you work on but hey organics work!

EDIT: I must add I am referring to rooted plants, not cuttings

Grimmy

Oh, I am by no means an expert. Most of my trees are just prebonsai with little ramification.

Cactus mix would’ve done me well.

 

[ohiogrown]

I opted for "poor man's boons mix". I used lava rock but substituted DE for akadama and perlite for pumice. We'll see what happens!

This I have also done

 

[lwagner]

So would you all think in a pond basket/air pot 1/4" lava rock, pumice, diatomaceous earth, and park b

Hi Solaris,
So I have the floating thing like everyone else. How I combat that is to add a thin layer of pumice or potting mix. That stops the float thing. I love Perlite as it holds a bit of moisture and aerates the whole body of Soil mix so well.
We choose our own mixes I guess- mine is 80% pine bark (0-4mm), 10% Pumice (1-4 mm) and 10% Perlite (2-4mm). I use this mix as my “growing on mix for the years some of my trees need before even trying to refine.
Hope that helps @Iwagner also.
Charles

How often do you find you water your plants with that mix?

 

[lwagner]

Treat them as non-bonsai for a year in non-bonsai soil (or half/half), develop a feeling for them, devise a plan, revise the plan, keep them alive and thriving, and start collecting knowledge and materials so next year (or this fall) you can start doing some fun stuff.


6 months is a good time frame to see how they perform and respond. It's usually the time I take for "getting to know each other". In regular soils, there's a lot more room for errors. It's also a good way of checking if I can manage the summer care for that species. Some species respond bad to my regimes, so those die.. It's a hobby to me, not a job ;-)

So would you go potting soil mixed with pea gravel, perlite, and sand....or would you do lava rock, pumice, diatomaceous earth, and pine bark fines? I think I am going to place them in pond baskets. With the latter I feel like watering would be every 2-3 days and I don't think I would need to repot for a few years with the latter soil mix. Thoughts?

 

[GrimLore]

So would you go potting soil mixed with pea gravel, perlite, and sand....or would you do lava rock, pumice, diatomaceous earth, and pine bark fines? I think I am going to place them in pond baskets. With the latter I feel like watering would be every 2-3 days and I don't think I would need to repot for a few years with the latter soil mix. Thoughts?

I need to intercede a little here

1) No plant will grow healthy if you do not promote air and nutrients flowing by the roots potted - it does not matter what mix you try it must meet that standard. The many exceptions like plants that grow in water do not apply in Bonsai "type" plants but even Cacti need very good drainage.
2)Why? If you set your potted plants up for an outdoor growing season they need that air flow which comes from watering that draws air across the roots and nutrients when applied. If you make a mix that allows for anything less then daily watering the roots will sit without air for longer then 24 hours - what happens? - you introduce root rot, fungal problems, and more...

Grimmy

 

[lwagner]

I need to intercede a little here

1) No plant will grow healthy if you do not promote air and nutrients flowing by the roots potted - it does not matter what mix you try it must meet that standard. The many exceptions like plants that grow in water do not apply in Bonsai "type" plants but even Cacti need very good drainage.
2)Why? If you set your potted plants up for an outdoor growing season they need that air flow which comes from watering that draws air across the roots and nutrients when applied. If you make a mix that allows for anything less then daily watering the roots will sit without air for longer then 24 hours - what happens? - you introduce root rot, fungal problems, and more...

Grimmy

So Grimmy,
I have a couple questions. My wife and I usually leave about once a month for the weekend (2-3 days) to visit family. Is this too long to leave in a boon mix unwatered?
Would you not add pine bark fines to a boon mix? With reading about the air pots/smart pots/ etc they dry out much quicker due to all the access air has to the substrate so I am concerned with having to much of a dry of a mix that I have to water extremely frequently. Hopefully what I am trying to ask is making sense.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

So would you all think in a pond basket/air pot 1/4" lava rock, pumice, diatomaceous earth, and park b

How often do you find you water your plants with that mix?

Hi lwagner,
So we have a thread going here where Potting mixes for 1/2 gallon - 5 gallon nursery pots have been discussed VERSUS bonsai soil which is completely different. @GrimLore makes some great points regarding bonsai soil being highly free- draining etc, but I was more interpreting your question as the interest in growing out trees in nursery pots, where you can have a potting mix which holds more moisture.
My mix I have observed is a little wet but here is the info re watering etc -
So Spring is every 2-4 days depending on how many days beyond 20degrees Celsius. In Summer I have been watering every day and sometimes it hasn’t been enough. We don’t get extreme heat here so average about 24-26 C etc. Now Autumn I have backed it off to every 2 days and some rain extends the gap more.
With all this in mind ( and converting to Fahrenheit ) I don’t have any trees in Bonsai pots and all trees are in 2-10 litres so growing for the next few years to gain bigger trunk girth etc.
Everyone has their methods to grow on trees and shrubs and this STYLE of potting media gives you the buffer of the pine bark to not be desperately watering every day even 2-3 times a day. I would probably tweak the mix for 10-20% more Pumice/Perlite.
So you choose and via observation over the next season which media will work for you.
So in case you and or others think I am a bit of a know-all, then sorry as 25 years in the nursery trade has given some experience.
Hope that all helps,
Charles

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

So would you go potting soil mixed with pea gravel, perlite, and sand....or would you do lava rock, pumice, diatomaceous earth, and pine bark fines? I think I am going to place them in pond baskets. With the latter I feel like watering would be every 2-3 days and I don't think I would need to repot for a few years with the latter soil mix. Thoughts?

What I would do? If I was handling deciduous, I'd go with the first mix. If I was handling pines, I'd make a combination of both.
But that's for my style, my climate and my personal regiment. Others would pick diffetent approaches. That's not helpfull at all, i know. But part of bonsai is personal development if you ask me. Argue, try and talk yourself out of using certain materials, if you can't, it's good stuff.

 

[lwagner]

Hi lwagner,
So we have a thread going here where Potting mixes for 1/2 gallon - 5 gallon nursery pots have been discussed VERSUS bonsai soil which is completely different. @GrimLore makes some great points regarding bonsai soil being highly free- draining etc, but I was more interpreting your question as the interest in growing out trees in nursery pots, where you can have a potting mix which holds more moisture.
My mix I have observed is a little wet but here is the info re watering etc -
So Spring is every 2-4 days depending on how many days beyond 20degrees Celsius. In Summer I have been watering every day and sometimes it hasn’t been enough. We don’t get extreme heat here so average about 24-26 C etc. Now Autumn I have backed it off to every 2 days and some rain extends the gap more.
With all this in mind ( and converting to Fahrenheit ) I don’t have any trees in Bonsai pots and all trees are in 2-10 litres so growing for the next few years to gain bigger trunk girth etc.
Everyone has their methods to grow on trees and shrubs and this STYLE of potting media gives you the buffer of the pine bark to not be desperately watering every day even 2-3 times a day. I would probably tweak the mix for 10-20% more Pumice/Perlite.
So you choose and via observation over the next season which media will work for you.
So in case you and or others think I am a bit of a know-all, then sorry as 25 years in the nursery trade has given some experience.
Hope that all helps,
Charles

Yes this helps, your reply here hits what I have been looking for. I had also posted on some other sites, and while doing research there is so much information and opinions I have been reading and given, it is hard to decide what is useful for this stage or not. I felt like an top being pulled in different directions trying to sift the information. So pine bark fines, pumice, perlite and let them grow. With the pond baskets I purchased oversized, probably about 1gallon or a little more in size. If you were finding that they were drying out in 24-26 C would you think adding some diatomaceous earth would help to increase water retention without causing root rot. Our summers here have days reaching the 30's or higher?

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Yes this helps, your reply here hits what I have been looking for. I had also posted on some other sites, and while doing research there is so much information and opinions I have been reading and given, it is hard to decide what is useful for this stage or not. I felt like an top being pulled in different directions trying to sift the information. So pine bark fines, pumice, perlite and let them grow. With the pond baskets I purchased oversized, probably about 1gallon or a little more in size. If you were finding that they were drying out in 24-26 C would you think adding some diatomaceous earth would help to increase water retention without causing root rot. Our summers here have days reaching the 30's or higher?

Hi lwagner,
So, you are on the right track in doing lots of research, and if you haven’t already, in Resoures section of this website you will find some excellent write-ups about lots of different bonsai soil components, which can be used also in growing on stuff.
Do you need to add DE to your recipe? Sorry I don’t know, but bear these 2 or so things in mind.
- pond baskets are great for developing lots of feeder roots ( eg Pines and other conifers), but they dry out faster because of all the air holes (exposure).
- As others have pointed out also, you will have to experience first hand what soil mix works for you and your climate. I would be worried if your mix on the hottest part of the summer didn’t need watering every day, then you would have it that wet/soggy that no oxygen would be passing thru, so trees die or be depressed from that.
- So to answer a previous question you have regarding “going away for 2-3 nights quite often. You have choices of placing your trees in a shady part of garden and maybe in a tray of wet grit. The other choice would be what a lot of growers here (including me) have set up an AUTO watering system (sprinklers etc) that you can program to water every day, twice a day, and choose length of watering. Fancy controllers give you more than one station so you can give your deciduous trees x amount of water and your conifers y amount of water per day. BUT nothing comes close to hand watering as you get to OBSERVE your trees, and tailor which tree gets how much. In other words after a few years of Practice and Observation techniques you will be able to tell whether your deciduous trees are suffering because their leaves change colour from dark/average green to a pale grey look to them. IF you let any trees wilt for too long (a few hours MAX) you will then start killing of all your feeder roots. That is why you will see that most growers here who have trees in pots etc like well drained mixes - so there is no fear of root rot from soil being too wet. At work we use 100% pine bark (fines thru to 1/4 inch) , and a wetting agent,slow release fertilizers,
and this is too wet 6 months plus of the year, and the more sensitive plants go rotten or don’t look like how they should etc.
I hope this book wasn’t too much to handle and you can follow my thinking/logic. Enjoy the journey as your first potting mix won’t be your last lol.
Charles

 

[sorce]

So would you go potting soil mixed with pea gravel, perlite, and sand....or would you do lava rock, pumice, diatomaceous earth, and pine bark fines? I think I am going to place them in pond baskets. With the latter I feel like watering would be every 2-3 days and I don't think I would need to repot for a few years with the latter soil mix. Thoughts?

This is a bit confusing in that the latter is an everyday water mix.

And the former is a 2-3 day water mix.

So I dont know if you've confused latter and former, or think the former is 7 day water and the latter is 2-3 day water.

?

I left all my indoor tropical in water trays for 2-3 days recently and they were fine.

Poor man says leaving boon mix in a tray of water is optimal for 2-3 days. (Provided it is set up correctly.)

Rich man says use an auto system, poor man don't trust that shit!

For me....Boon mix, or any modern substrate is basically a hand watered rise and fall hydro system. (Stupid right? Lol)

While leaving trees in water For days is not optimal, it only stands the chance of damaging unhealthy trees.

Whereas one broke pipe, one dead battery, one power outage, one water company shutting off the water to fix a blown main, one critter moving a nozzle....

Any one of those things can kill a tree on an auto setup.

Sorce