Southern Live Oak (Quercus virginiana) Pre-Bonsai 10 Years in Training

[miker]

In 2006, I decided I had to have a live oak bonsai originating from a beautiful ancient tree right near my parent's former house. This tree must be 300 years old, the trunk is gargantuan.

I grew my tree from an acorn sprouted in 2006 and grown in the ground, with a wooden slab underneath the roots. For the first 6 years, this tree was grown in the ground and trimmed back once per year in February, just before growth resumed. In February 2012, I dug the tree and planted it in the training pot seen in the photo. Since 2012, I have still only pruned it once per year, but with a more careful eye to developing primary and secondary branching.

The trunk is getting there in terms of thickness (about a 2.5-3" nebari at the moment), but I am going to keep it in the training pot for 2-3 more years to allow it to thicken a bit more. As is probably obvious, I want the tree to be a natural style which mimics the natural form of Quercus virginiana.

Note, the nebari does flare at the base, but this is not currently visible due to surface detritus. I will clean this up and post a photo in the near future.

What does everybody think? Suggestions?

 

[JudyB]

I think I would get my wire out now before some of the branches are too hard to move. I also think I'd cut back some of the large straight branches and start them over a bit. Nice tree from acorn, but time to get some good shaping done up top.

 

[rockm]

I'm not positive that's a quercus virginiana. It IS however, a good start on an oak bonsai.

The leaf shape is weird for a virginiana, but then leaf shape can be variable with the species.

Judy gives good advice. The branches are lifting vertically and getting thicker. You CANNOT wire thick oak branches into place. Like all deciduous species in bonsai, movement and character in branches is made through hard pruning and re growing.

I took a closer look at the leaves, yeah most likely a virginiana, but the leaves have more serration and are a bit wider than what I'm used to.

 

[milehigh_7]

Yep what they said... You want bends close in to the trunk so you may have to lop some off and regrow... As far as species, Rock's right it does not look like a Q.v at first glance. But nearly everything is variable on oaks with the exception of the acorn and the cap.


Oh and clean off that crown, they do get crown rot...

 

[miker]

I'm not positive that's a quercus virginiana. It IS however, a good start on an oak bonsai.

The leaf shape is weird for a virginiana, but then leaf shape can be variable with the species.

Judy gives good advice. The branches are lifting vertically and getting thicker. You CANNOT wire thick oak branches into place. Like all deciduous species in bonsai, movement and character in branches is made through hard pruning and re growing.

I took a closer look at the leaves, yeah most likely a virginiana, but the leaves have more serration and are a bit wider than what I'm used to.

Rockm,

I did get the acorn directly from the ancient live oak I mentioned. Also, the juvenile leaves look way different than the mature leaves in Quercus virginiana and as you mentioned, can be quite variable in general. Thank you for the feedback! Have to run, but will re-read everything more thoroughly when I get home.

 

[miker]

Judy, you are absolutely right. This year, for the first time, I did some more precise work on the trunk and branching with the concave/knob cutters in addition to just giving it a massive haircut. Further, I added some really nutrient rich soil to the surface and have given the tree a healthy dose of organic fertilizer. This has paid off in the form of improved and more numerous back budding already. All the growth you see in the photo has literally occurred in less than a week. This last Saturday the tree was just a stump with a few swelling buds.

All of this new growth should give me more options with regard to cutting the branches back to the first bud to eliminate straight portions and develop natural movement over time. I will order some thick gauge wire and more closely study our best local live oaks so I know what to do when wiring. The four in my yard, as well as many of the other older (but not ancient) live oaks in the area are misshapen and uneven from storm damage due to the 2004 hurricanes (mainly Charley).

Rockm, I will make sure to wire any branch lengths that need to be kept sooner, rather than later. Also, by the end of the growing season each year, my tree has a mix of mature and these weird juvenile leaves. I am thinking that as the tree becomes older and more fine branch development begins, the leaves will become all like the "typical" live oak leaves. As a side note, this tree went fully deciduous on me early in the year 2-3 years ago. It is the only time that has happened and the tree stayed bare for over a month, but the twigs were clearly alive, so I was not worried.

Milehigh, I will definitely have to cut back some of the branching to induce taper and movement, especially since I don't know how well even thick wire will work, or how brittle this species tends to be. I am so glad I obtained the acorn directly from the tree or I would be so disappointed, not knowing for sure if this is the live oak I was after. Do you mean I should clean up the soil surface around the trunk? The crown is "clean".

 

[GrimLore]

What does everybody think?

Cool! And a little info for all here -

Eight members of the white oak group are native to Florida: bluff oak, Chapman oak, Chinkapin oak,live oak, Overcup oak, Post oak, Swamp chestnut oak and White oak. Sand post oak, a variety of post oak, also is native to Florida. Yours looks like a Chinkapin having longer narrow leaf - Nice trees by the way and should live nicely for you!

Grimmy

 

[miker]

Grimmy,

We do have an excellent variety of oak species in FL, many are native to only the northern part of the state. I plan to collect some of the deciduous species locally to try as bonsai and at this point will probably wait until next "winter".

I think my tree is going to have an extremely bright future. I am in no hurry with it so I may keep it in a training pot for another decade if I decide this is what is needed to get the trunk to a suitable thickness (relative to the eventual height of the tree). The species is about as care free as it gets around here, but the additional irrigation and fertilizer should only help it to develop more quickly than if it were left to fend for itself.

 

[milehigh_7]

Judy, you are absolutely right. This year, for the first time, I did some more precise work on the trunk and branching with the concave/knob cutters in addition to just giving it a massive haircut. Further, I added some really nutrient rich soil to the surface and have given the tree a healthy dose of organic fertilizer. This has paid off in the form of improved and more numerous back budding already. All the growth you see in the photo has literally occurred in less than a week. This last Saturday the tree was just a stump with a few swelling buds.

All of this new growth should give me more options with regard to cutting the branches back to the first bud to eliminate straight portions and develop natural movement over time. I will order some thick gauge wire and more closely study our best local live oaks so I know what to do when wiring. The four in my yard, as well as many of the other older (but not ancient) live oaks in the area are misshapen and uneven from storm damage due to the 2004 hurricanes (mainly Charley).

Rockm, I will make sure to wire any branch lengths that need to be kept sooner, rather than later. Also, by the end of the growing season each year, my tree has a mix of mature and these weird juvenile leaves. I am thinking that as the tree becomes older and more fine branch development begins, the leaves will become all like the "typical" live oak leaves. As a side note, this tree went fully deciduous on me early in the year 2-3 years ago. It is the only time that has happened and the tree stayed bare for over a month, but the twigs were clearly alive, so I was not worried.

Milehigh, I will definitely have to cut back some of the branching to induce taper and movement, especially since I don't know how well even thick wire will work, or how brittle this species tends to be. I am so glad I obtained the acorn directly from the tree or I would be so disappointed, not knowing for sure if this is the live oak I was after. Do you mean I should clean up the soil surface around the trunk? The crown is "clean".

I did this to a Q.v I used to have... I miss that tree. I did not need to wire clear to the ends but did it for fun. BTW if you feed it good the wire will bite in in about 2-3 weeks.

 

[milehigh_7]

Go read @grouper52's tutorial and do that to your tree. http://www.bonsainut.com/resources/the-fine-art-of-baby-bending.13/

 

[rockm]

"Rockm, I will make sure to wire any branch lengths that need to be kept sooner, rather than later. Also, by the end of the growing season each year, my tree has a mix of mature and these weird juvenile leaves. I am thinking that as the tree becomes older and more fine branch development begins, the leaves will become all like the "typical" live oak leaves. As a side note, this tree went fully deciduous on me early in the year 2-3 years ago. It is the only time that has happened and the tree stayed bare for over a month, but the twigs were clearly alive, so I was not worried."

My live oak is 260 years old (at least that's what I got up to counting rings in the cut root end on the trunk before nearsightedness made me stop) and it develops a mix of small and large leaves every year . Weird looking leaves also can develop. That doesn't change with maturity.

FWIW, the best way I've found to induce finer branching is through extremely hard, sometimes drastic pruning . Letting branches grow doesn't induce much of any secondary and tertiary branching or even back budding and can even slow it down. Cutting two thirds of a big branch off usually results in an explosion of new budding and branching back along the branch even on the trunk. IMO, wiring long new shoots into zig zag patterns doesn't produce convincing branching on live oaks' rugged trunks. It looks strange. Cut and grow with its ability to produce abrupt "stop and go" movement in longer branches more approximates the way live oak behaves in the wild.

I would NOT use wire to try and bend branches any bigger than 1/4 inch, unless you're willing to lose them. Branches also tend to be weak at branch unions, so leveraging a big branch to bend it can result in the branch separating from the closest union with another branch in some cases.

My live oak tends to drop its leaves from October to April...especially in April, since new buds push them off.

 

[milehigh_7]

@rockm Yours is one of my all time favorite trees.

 

[miker]

Rockm, please feel free to post a photo of your live oak! I am sure most others here have already seen it, but I haven't yet. 260 + years old, wow!

 

[Borg]

Very nice! I hope to add southern live oaks to my collection in the future. I may have to stop by LSU next time I'm in Baton Rouge and get some acorns from their trees.

 

[just.wing.it]

In 2006, I decided I had to have a live oak bonsai originating from a beautiful ancient tree right near my parent's former house. This tree must be 300 years old, the trunk is gargantuan.

I grew my tree from an acorn sprouted in 2006 and grown in the ground, with a wooden slab underneath the roots. For the first 6 years, this tree was grown in the ground and trimmed back once per year in February, just before growth resumed. In February 2012, I dug the tree and planted it in the training pot seen in the photo. Since 2012, I have still only pruned it once per year, but with a more careful eye to developing primary and secondary branching.

The trunk is getting there in terms of thickness (about a 2.5-3" nebari at the moment), but I am going to keep it in the training pot for 2-3 more years to allow it to thicken a bit more. As is probably obvious, I want the tree to be a natural style which mimics the natural form of Quercus virginiana.

Note, the nebari does flare at the base, but this is not currently visible due to surface detritus. I will clean this up and post a photo in the near future.

What does everybody think? Suggestions?

Cool. That's encouraging to see. From seed trees, that is. Nice job so far.

 

[Potawatomi13]

With 2.5-3" trunk you have great start! Species(?)possibility....many if not most Oaks hybridize readily so is possible to have hybrid unless no other oaks within 1/2 mile or so. Fresh new growth can be wired before hardening but wire loose. Also this stage wiring can snap new twigs(as I have done)but if not broken off use cut paste and hold with wire and likely will heal. Do NOT try to bend back! Broke one in 3 places this year and all healed. One is even right angle bend now!

 

[miker]

My dad has been caring for this southern live oak for the past 8.5 months since I moved to PA. This is an updated photo of it from today (on the right), enjoying the start of the rainy season in Florida.

I am pretty sure it is a pure Quercus virginiana. It was sprouted in 2006 from an acorn collected froman absolutely ancient live oak (think 300 years possibly), that is right near the street near my parent's former home(tree itself is adjacent to the intersection of Horatio Ave and Old Horatio Ave in Maitland, Fl). As such, I suspect the tree is not of hybrid origin but rather the pure species.

 

[Crawforde]

The mother tree may be “pure” but if the pollen that fertilized the flower that made that acorn came from another closely related species then the tree that grows from it could be a hybrid. Age shouldn’t matter, oaks have been around for a lot longer than people have.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Minor differences in leaf shape do not a new species or hybrid make. The differences that count are in the details of the flowers and acorn. This tree is way to young for both. There can be a big difference between juvenile leaf shapes and mature foliage leaf shapes. I would not doubt the identity of this oak. Besides in bonsai the identity of the species is not very important, the appearance of the tree, and the emotional impact of the image the tree creates is all that counts. This tree has sentimental impact for the owner, so regardless of the scientific identity, that it came from a specific 300 year old tree, is all that counts for the owner.

Whether the tree is in full sun or part shade will also influence leaf shape.