The Hemlock (Tsuga) Discussion THREAD.

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Update for Mountain Hemlock initial styling! This morning I finished the basics for the first styling of this tree! I have selected and positioned branches, placed wire on most of the foliage and prepared it for the coming growing season. I will let it recover prior to repotting to improve the planting angle and work on the roots. If all goes well that will be planned for the early fall 2021. if recovery and foliage is slower than will wait till spring 2022 for the repot and planting angle change. My direction at this point will be tilting back approximately 5 to 10 degrees. If foliage growth is very healthy, a lot of wire will need to be checked by mid summer to prevent cutting in to much. Four pictures to show all sides. Remember this is the first styling and not expected to look anything but rough.View attachment 354922View attachment 354923View attachment 354924View attachment 354925
Hey, it looks great. And I think the dynamics of the two trunks will only improve with time. I’m interested to see how the repotting goes as well.

I am mentally prepping for my upcoming repot of my collected Tsuga. I think I’ll have to dig in from the top to see if there is another base hiding in the roots; without being too destructive in case there isn’t. I’m planning on moving to a much shallower pot, but I’ll back off for the health of my one yamadori.
 

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Hey, it looks great. And I think the dynamics of the two trunks will only improve with time. I’m interested to see how the repotting goes as well.

I am mentally prepping for my upcoming repot of my collected Tsuga. I think I’ll have to dig in from the top to see if there is another base hiding in the roots; without being too destructive in case there isn’t. I’m planning on moving to a much shallower pot, but I’ll back off for the health of my one yamadori.
Just a suggestion to consider.
With hemlock I use a staged approach to revealing lower nebari. Repotting is reserved for cleaning, changing soil, removing dead roots from the base level, central interior from below or outside edges. When the tree has recovered from the repot then and only then I begin to reduce down from the top in stages, slowly revealing the desired base and nebari. Essentially when wanting to reduce the thickness of the root ball I work from the bottom as much as possible first.

The reasoning for this is that the Hemlock species are very dependant on the fine feeder roots near the surface! in this way I do not risk the overall health of the tree with too much at once! After that , every three or four months I reduce down 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch, then allow the tree to recover before exposing and removing more surface roots.
Good luck with your repotting.

For Yamadori I tend to keep to at least 4 to 5 inch depth minimum for the first five years in development.
 
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Just a suggestion to consider.
With hemlock I use a staged approach to revealing lower nebari. Repotting is reserved for cleaning, changing soil, removing dead roots from the base level, central interior from below or outside edges. When the tree has recovered from the repot then and only then I begin to reduce down from the top in stages, slowly revealing the desired base and nebari. Essentially when wanting to reduce the thickness of the root ball I work from the bottom as much as possible first.

The reasoning for this is that the Hemlock species are very dependant on the fine feeder roots near the surface! in this way I do not risk the overall health of the tree with too much at once! After that , every three or four months I reduce down 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch, then allow the tree to recover before exposing and removing more surface roots.
Good luck with your repotting.

For Yamadori I tend to keep to at least 4 to 5 inch depth minimum for the first five years in development.
Thank you for the input, definitely food for thought. A couple years ago I added soil to the bottom of the pot with the thought that it would allow me to slowly reduce from the top. In retrospect it was counter productive since I want into a shallower pot as well.
Maybe I should comb out the top some to see what I am working with before I commit to the repot? Or repot into the shallower pot without messing with the top (mounded way high, and remove soil bit by bit? I am antsy to get it into the Rayner pot.

It was collected in 2012 and repotted in 2014. Here is a photo from spring 2018, of the roots. And this winter from the back and front.
Maybe a nice easy combing is in order and then another couple photos highlighting the roots. I like to “feed” the trimmed leaves to the roots, but I should at least sweep up before strategizing.
 

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Thank you for the input, definitely food for thought. A couple years ago I added soil to the bottom of the pot with the thought that it would allow me to slowly reduce from the top. In retrospect it was counter productive since I want into a shallower pot as well.
Maybe I should comb out the top some to see what I am working with before I commit to the repot? Or repot into the shallower pot without messing with the top (mounded way high, and remove soil bit by bit? I am antsy to get it into the Rayner pot.

It was collected in 2012 and repotted in 2014. Here is a photo from spring 2018, of the roots. And this winter from the back and front.
Maybe a nice easy combing is in order and then another couple photos highlighting the roots. I like to “feed” the trimmed leaves to the roots, but I should at least sweep up before strategizing.
I suppose it might be safe to say my assessment is different from yours in this situation. My plan would be to place the tree in a deeper grow box after a careful partial repotting with not very aggressive root work! I would first want to improve the overall condition of the tree. Typically I would not work a hemlock with such reduced foliage. I would expect this process to take several years of partial repots to reach the point of safely reducing the root ball to fit in a Bonsai pot.
Without knowing what lies beneath the mound it is difficult to advise another individual, but the amount of foliage can only repair so much at one time! that is the decisive factor for me in this situation. Leaving the upper portion exposed and mounded simply weakens this species in my experience because they rely on surface feeder roots. That is why I would begin with a deeper grow box to turn the situation around.
 
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I suppose it might be safe to say my assessment is different from yours in this situation. My plan would be to place the tree in a deeper grow box after a careful partial repotting with not very aggressive root work! I would first want to improve the overall condition of the tree. Typically I would not work a hemlock with such reduced foliage. I would expect this process to take several years of partial repots to reach the point of safely reducing the root ball to fit in a Bonsai pot.
Without knowing what lies beneath the mound it is difficult to advise another individual, but the amount of foliage can only repair so much at one time! that is the decisive factor for me in this situation. Leaving the upper portion exposed and mounded simply weakens this species in my experience because they rely on surface feeder roots. That is why I would begin with a deeper grow box to turn the situation around.
Not what I wanted to hear, but I know you speak reason, as I went a little scissor happy over the winter. If I don’t touch the roots this spring, I know this will bounce back with tons of growth, as this guy is one of my most prodigious growers. And I’m hoping that species differences from the western types may explain the differences in care recommendations.
Here is a picture before this winter’s trimming was fully underway, to speak to the health of the tree. I likely will not move to a grow box, but I could be talked into a light repotting into the same pot in order to prep for a fall or next year move.
 

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Also, I should take advantage of the cutback by not messing with the roots in early Spring. Maybe I wait and see how strong the response/growth/budding will be and and take a measured response to the surface roots this year in late Spring or Summer. Then, next year I can take some roots off of the bottom to fit the new pot?
 

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Not what I wanted to hear, but I know you speak reason, as I went a little scissor happy over the winter. If I don’t touch the roots this spring, I know this will bounce back with tons of growth, as this guy is one of my most prodigious growers. And I’m hoping that species differences from the western types may explain the differences in care recommendations.
Here is a picture before this winter’s trimming was fully underway, to speak to the health of the tree. I likely will not move to a grow box, but I could be talked into a light repotting into the same pot in order to prep for a fall or next year move.
I will defer to your experience with this particular tree and the eastern species. There must be significant differences in care and expected responses. I work only with Western Hemlock and Mountain Hemlock. I will be interested in seeing the progress over the coming years. Lots of different approaches to developing Bonsai.
 

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Also, I should take advantage of the cutback by not messing with the roots in early Spring. Maybe I wait and see how strong the response/growth/budding will be and and take a measured response to the surface roots this year in late Spring or Summer. Then, next year I can take some roots off of the bottom to fit the new pot?

I assume you mean benefit from the cut back. and I agree that a period of recovery is in order prior to root work. This is separate from the consideration of species differences.
My previous advice is also guided by my basic design expectations and training. In all fairness your approach will also be guided by your practices and expectations for design which can be very different from mine! For example, the exposure and potting level of nebari in relation to the pot rim. My expectation would place the nebari slightly below the pot rim and not mounded above. This would involve more work and time. It would also involve a much more compact and shallow root ball. Thus I may wish to cover the exposed nebari for some time during development.

The direction and movement of the branches for conifer design. My expectation would be downward direction for most primary branches in the design. Just for my information, is the natural style of the Eastern Hemlock closer to deciduous styling than its western cousins?

Working with the natural tendency of the foliage to shape pads. From your pruning approach it appears that one can expect considerable back budding in interior areas that no longer have needles . This alone is a very significant difference in development opportunity from the Western or Mountain hemlock. How much back budding on bare branches or trunk do you get with the eastern hemlock?

I think these observations are important for those who may wish to decide between a variety of approaches for hemlock care.
 
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My end goal is not to have the tree mounded up over the top of the pot. But I do feel that there is a much better base under there somewhere. I seem to remember a solid wagon wheel (spokes) of roots underneath the duff that I carefully preserved, hoping for maximum feeder roots. My, likely misguided, strategy in 2018, was to lift the tree (solid roots kept the form of the pot) and add fresh soil underneath. My hope was that elevating the existing base would slowly uncover the roots over time, to reveal a better base. Maybe the plan will still work to a degree, but it is not uncovering on it’s own, so at some point I will need to gather courage and find out what I am working with under there.
You have convinced me not to go “full Monty” and try to surface a new base and repot into a much shallower pot in the same go. I’ll see how it responds, clean up the top with minimal invasiveness, and then decide if I should dig deeper for a half or smaller wedge of the surface. Kind of like a half bare root, but only the top section.
I’ll comment on styling and back-budding shortly.
 
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I have been wiring the branches down the last few winters, but it has been a slow progression. It is funny, but it is hard to get an idea of the form of a mature eastern hemlock. In the understory they are somewhat Christmas tree like, but with lots of variation, but the big ones travel in packs ( groves ) and all you see is big trunks and that the sky is darkened.. hard to see the tree for the forest. In my experience.
I do get some back budding but not tons of it. Mostly to leaves, but occasionally to locations where there were recently leaves. I haven’t cut back to no leaves where I am planning on keeping a branch, but I did leave some stubs for guy wires to attach too later.
Last winter, wired by my brother in law; and a few other shots from the last year.
 

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River's Edge

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I have been wiring the branches down the last few winters, but it has been a slow progression. It is funny, but it is hard to get an idea of the form of a mature eastern hemlock. In the understory they are somewhat Christmas tree like, but with lots of variation, but the big ones travel in packs ( groves ) and all you see is big trunks and that the sky is darkened.. hard to see the tree for the forest. In my experience.
I do get some back budding but not tons of it. Mostly to leaves, but occasionally to locations where there were recently leaves. I haven’t cut back to no leaves where I am planning on keeping a branch, but I did leave some stubs for guy wires to attach too later.
Last winter, wired by my brother in law; and a few other shots from the last year.
Thank you, I appreciate the comments.
 

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This is an attempt at an “old growth” or what is also know as a “Vet”.....it’s 38” tall, nebari at its longest section is 9”and base is 4”.
Some before and after.......aaaarrrrrgggg selected each angle in order and when they uploaded.....all out of sequence.
 

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Hi Graham
Sorry for the crude black out strokes! Checking out a different version with reduced foliage:eek:
It is missing a variety of running shoes hanging on jin.
If foliage were reduced, I suspect some interesting jin could be retained for additional interest. Hard to see with the foliage.
I do like a front that shows the natural shari even if it retreats a bit from the viewer.
 

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Drewski

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Just a suggestion to consider.
With hemlock I use a staged approach to revealing lower nebari. Repotting is reserved for cleaning, changing soil, removing dead roots from the base level, central interior from below or outside edges. When the tree has recovered from the repot then and only then I begin to reduce down from the top in stages, slowly revealing the desired base and nebari. Essentially when wanting to reduce the thickness of the root ball I work from the bottom as much as possible first.

The reasoning for this is that the Hemlock species are very dependant on the fine feeder roots near the surface! in this way I do not risk the overall health of the tree with too much at once! After that , every three or four months I reduce down 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch, then allow the tree to recover before exposing and removing more surface roots.
Good luck with your repotting.

For Yamadori I tend to keep to at least 4 to 5 inch depth minimum for the first five years in development.
Are these surface roots something typical for the species, or more dependent on its environment? I’m wondering if I can expect the same with a mountain hemlock in a nursery pot.
 

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Are these surface roots something typical for the species, or more dependent on its environment? I’m wondering if I can expect the same with a mountain hemlock in a nursery pot.
Good Question, very dependant on the environment. Collected from a bog the tree will generally have long strong roots and fewer fibrous roots. With water always available the tree needs fewer roots for survival. Collected from a shallow rock pocket the tree will have many more fibrous roots. It also depends on the collector and the process used immediately after collection as well as the condition when collected. Some collectors get excited and remove a lot of surface roots unknowingly by clearing to check out the nebari before collection. Pulling away all that duff often removes fine fibrous roots.
Hemlock typically have very strong thick anchor roots as well as fibrous roots. The fibrous roots are the important ones to protect when repotting, The strong anchor roots require a lot of pruning to fit the tree in Bonsai pots eventually. Typically the fibrous roots develop closer to the surface which is why the lower portion is generally safer to deal with first, then after recovery slowly reduce down the surface level.
I do not follow the same process step by step with each tree, one needs to adapt to what one finds. The one constant is I never bare root Hemlocks , nor attempt to change out more than 1/3 of the native soil at one time. This however is just my approach, I prefer to take my time and always be working with a healthier tree. Over the years I have learned it actually saves time as the tree responds quicker and I can continue the process sooner.

If you remove the debris off the surface of your nursery pot and gently explore the surface soil you should find a strong webbing of roots near the surface if the tree is well established in that pot. Often you can see roots emerging and re entering the surface of the soil across the top. Unless you are certain where the main base begins then I do not recommend you just saw off the bottom portion of the root ball with this species.

If your tree was grown in a nursery then the situation will be very different with likely a much more entangled central portion and circling the wagons on the outer perimeter.
Hope the comments help.
 

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Are these surface roots something typical for the species, or more dependent on its environment? I’m wondering if I can expect the same with a mountain hemlock in a nursery pot.
I am curious as to the story behind this tree? The foliage and growth habit appears atypical for Mountain Hemlock.
 

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I am curious as to the story behind this tree? The foliage and growth habit appears atypical for Mountain Hemlock.
I’ve seen similar foliage from certain Mountain Hemlock in the Washington Cascades region. (Needles are more blue-ish, long, and narrow; needle habit is more “tightly” clustered and less “open” in radial orientation from the branch) The genetic variances are fascinating!
 
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I bought it at the Cedar Rim Nursery in Langley. According to the tag it’s a Tsuga Mertensiana ‘Glacier Peak’, a cultivar sold by Iseli.
 

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I bought it at the Cedar Rim Nursery in Langley. According to the tag it’s a Tsuga Mertensiana ‘Glacier Peak’, a cultivar sold by Iseli.
Cool!

Here’s my Mountain Hemlock showing the unique southwest Washington genetics, which I suspect are near where ‘Glacier Peak’ was found: (yes, the foliage is a little yellowed from stress)
F23CF805-BF0E-4490-8D6F-EC4576E8D9CE.jpeg


Mountain Hemlock from the central Oregon Cascades, near Diamond Lake: (which appears more like the “standard” Mountain Hemlock foliage to me)
DD3107ED-5B10-42DE-9BCE-9C5A0896D6ED.jpeg


Finally, Mountain Hemlock from Anton Nijhuis, which showed evidence of a boggy collection site:
98AF7591-3B57-42ED-99EA-0CE9DC824F86.jpeg
 
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I bought it at the Cedar Rim Nursery in Langley. According to the tag it’s a Tsuga Mertensiana ‘Glacier Peak’, a cultivar sold by Iseli.
Thanks, that makes sense for the growth habit if it is a nursery grown tree as they are often raised in close proximity to each other produce that form of branch growth when more crowded.
 
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