The "So?" response to bonsai rules.

[ZombieNick]

Well when I was trained in some basic flower arrangement (Western) I was also thought that 3, 5, 7 are preferable over 2, 4, 6 so there is also an aesthetic component to it.

This is a design principle that extends beyond bonsai. Odd numbers create asymmetry, which is generally more interesting and visually appealing to humans. There is some psychology behind it as well. We process even numbers faster than odd numbers... because of this, even numbers seem normal, ordinary, neat, routine; odd numbers demand our attention.

 

[Cruiser]

We all want to be understood.
It seems like my post with the cypresses was misinterpreted by some people.

-It was never meant to be a response to leatherbacks question of what makes a bonsai.

-It was never intended to be a flex. It clearly is not some renegade rule-breaking composition. Most of the “rule breaks” in it aren’t even intentional and won’t be kept.

-The intention was only to demonstrate some of the “rules“ I think Joe was talking about and to get us to agree that some are subjective and not necessarily deal- breakers. You do not need a show worthy tree to demonstrate these concepts.

Somehow people feel that questions are insulting.

Questions absolutely can be used in a way to insult a person.
When one asks a genuine question, they wait for a response, right?
.

So, you consider that bonsai?
As asked before: What makes bonsai different from a plant in a pot?

Immediate repetition with a question before I could even respond comes across as dismissive and rude. Please don’t frame the statement you were making as an innocent question. Please own it. We all can be jerks, sometimes.

 

[Baku1875]

You have me confused here. But for the sake of not burrying this thread in shit lets not discuss it.


I think this reflects exactly the point I was trying to make, but seems to have missed the mark, considering also the private reaching out to me. Somehow people feel that questions are insulting. I find questions lead to understanding and avoid assumptions.

There is a point where trees planted in a container or no longer a shrub of a bush, but become bonsai. I have asked this question several times, and not a single person has ventured into a response. To me, this is however the key component of the discussion. If we do not follow a certain set of basic criteria for a plant to move into the domain of bonsai, then every shrub, cutting and chopped plant in a pot is a bonsai. I would hope this is not the understanding of bonsai this community has.

A lot of things that we do to make it bonsai come from a basic understanding what a bonsai is. Whether this is artistic rendering of an ancient tree in nature, or the dutiful application of a set of 'rules'.

IMO it's at some point between middle development and refinement stages, and when multiple design features complement one another successfully.
Or like what many solid artists on this forum do for practice- get their hands on nursery material and style it aggressively. It tells a story and you can see where the tree is going simply by glancing at it. It has multiple features that are well executed and will survive the styling. It's been fast forwarded to middle development or even refinement. It's a bonsai IMO even if it's in a nursery pot.

A butchered shrub in a small pot that doesnt resemble a real tree in any way could be a horticultural 'statement', but I agree that it is NOT a bonsai. It's the difference between typing a paragraph, and typing random letters. A well written paragraph successfully transmits orderly information from the writer to the reader. Random letters, or a butchered shrub transmit confusion to the viewer, and/or the viewer doesn't successfully understand what the artist was trying to say.

When I look at a bonsai, I get an idea of what the artist was trying to say right away: "OHH I see what you mean" is the thought that immediately comes to mind when I see one. Like if a painter shows you a painting and tells you it's a landscape, but it's just paint randomly smeared all over the place....that's not a landscape painting. It can be considered a "statement", but it isn't a landscape painting. There is a difference between bonsai and *random tree art*.

 

[Baku1875]

Sometimes it is good to have a 'thought experiment' type of discussion that asks why, and attempts to quantify an artistic procedure like bonsai.

I have appreciated this thread so far.

 

[Paradox]

We all want to be understood.
It seems like my post with the cypresses was misinterpreted by some people.

-It was never meant to be a response to leatherbacks question of what makes a bonsai.

-It was never intended to be a flex. It clearly is not some renegade rule-breaking composition. Most of the “rule breaks” in it aren’t even intentional and won’t be kept.

-The intention was only to demonstrate some of the “rules“ I think Joe was talking about and to get us to agree that some are subjective and not necessarily deal- breakers. You do not need a show worthy tree to demonstrate these concepts.

I understand what you were trying to get at with that grouping but honestly it was a bad example only because it is so early in its development that the things you pointed out are to be expected in an undeveloped pre bonsai.

 

[leatherback]

Please don’t frame the statement you were making as an innocent question.

Or..

Do not interpret a question I am posing as a statement. DO not presume you know what I am thinking when I inquire after your thoughts. Life becomes a lot more straightforward if people try to not read other persons minds.

It was not a statement. It was a question.

I was asking do YOU consider it a bonsai.
What I think at that point is irrelevant.

 

[Baku1875]

Or..

Do not interpret a question I am posing as a statement. DO not presume you know what I am thinking when I inquire after your thoughts. Life becomes a lot more straightforward if people try to not read other persons minds.

It was not a statement. It was a question.

I was asking do YOU consider it a bonsai.
What I think at that point is irrelevant.

Asking someone if they believe that their grouping is a bonsai or not should not be considered an offense IMO. Is the goal for it to be a Penjing style forest down the road? What developmental goals and design features will take it into bonsai-hood? etc...an opportunity for the person to explain their vision for a developing piece.

It's a discussion forum, we should be discussing!

 

[FreshAirSunshine]

Asking someone if they believe that their grouping is a bonsai or not should not be considered an offense IMO. Is the goal for it to be a Penjing style forest down the road? What developmental goals and design features will take it into bonsai-hood? etc...an opportunity for the person to explain their vision for a developing piece.

It's a discussion forum, we should be discussing!

I just referenced my urbanadori as pre-pre-bonsai for clarity

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I think I just never read the rules. Maybe I don't even do bonsai, maybe I do miniature representations of man made trees or something.
I'm here to have fun and talk about it. And maybe offending the French by stating that Spanish wines are way better.

Bonsai to me is not what bonsai might be to you. Potato, tomato.

Both 'O' shaped but one makes ketchup and the other certainly doesn't need ketchup. Come fight me. Continental condiment war!
I'm here to break some tension, by the way. Where's @HorseloverFat at?

 

[Baku1875]

I think I just never read the rules. Maybe I don't even do bonsai, maybe I do miniature representations of man made trees or something.
I'm here to have fun and talk about it. And maybe offending the French by stating that Spanish wines are way better.

Bonsai to me is not what bonsai might be to you. Potato, tomato.

Both 'O' shaped but one makes ketchup and the other certainly doesn't need ketchup. Come fight me. Continental condiment war!
I'm here to break some tension, by the way. Where's @HorseloverFat at?

2019 Ribera del dueros right now are noice. U tried Dominio del Aguila?

That being said, I recently found out that I dont really have any bonsai, my older trees are basically Penjing until further refinement

 

[BobbyLane]

Asking someone if they believe that their grouping is a bonsai or not should not be considered an offense IMO. Is the goal for it to be a Penjing style forest down the road? What developmental goals and design features will take it into bonsai-hood? etc...an opportunity for the person to explain their vision for a developing piece.

It's a discussion forum, we should be posting photos and discussing!

I edited it for you. Without the photos it begins to get a bit tedious and boring IMHO.

 

[Baku1875]

This is my old ficus...it's closer to an unrefined Penjing than a bonsai rules broken! it's probably not even a Penjing! I'm probably gonna chop off those straight branches and leave them as stubs and start over on the canopy....NOT A BONSAI!

 

[BobbyLane]

This is my old ficus...it's closer to an unrefined Penjing than a bonsai rules broken! it's probably not even a Penjing! I'm probably gonna chop off those straight branches and leave them as stubs and start over on the canopy....NOT A BONSAI!
View attachment 486619

Cool, not directed at you btw. I was speaking in general terms.

 

[BobbyLane]

In regards to the thread, Dav4 already nailed it for me on the first page:

'I can't say the word "rule" has been part of my bonsai vocabulary in at least 10 years. My eyes have been trained, more or less, to accept what looks good and works visually/stylistically/aesthetically... and reject what looks bad (most of the time). Imo, rules are a construct for creating "bonsai by the numbers" and mainly for beginners. If you expose yourself to enough good trees over time, you don't really need to list the rules verbatim to create good trees... my 0.02.'



I have nothing further to add here. Enjoy!

 

[HorseloverFat]

I think I just never read the rules. Maybe I don't even do bonsai, maybe I do miniature representations of man made trees or something.
I'm here to have fun and talk about it. And maybe offending the French by stating that Spanish wines are way better.

Bonsai to me is not what bonsai might be to you. Potato, tomato.

Both 'O' shaped but one makes ketchup and the other certainly doesn't need ketchup. Come fight me. Continental condiment war!
I'm here to break some tension, by the way. Where's @HorseloverFat at?

Haha!!! Damn!!

I thought I would be able to mic-drop and walk away!!!



Things got heavy after I left!



Garlic a-O-li....

Continental condiment war!!!!

 

[Baku1875]

Cool, not directed at you btw. I was speaking in general terms.

didnt perceive it as being directed at me, i just threw a pic in the mix for context and for fun (it's an old tree with interesting trunk but a lot can be done to canopy and it isn't a bonsai by the book)

The internet needs to reduce its hypersensitivity in general. I'm here for laughs and to learn and discuss stuff with internet randoms who also love trees. And of course the added benefit of getting input on design ideas and techniques that can be applied to my trees.

 

[BobbyLane]

didnt perceive it as being directed at me, i just threw a pic in the mix for context and for fun (it's an old tree with interesting trunk but a lot can be done to canopy and it isn't a bonsai by the book)

The internet needs to reduce its hypersensitivity in general. I'm here for laughs and to learn and discuss stuff with internet randoms who also love trees. And of course the added benefit of getting input on design ideas and techniques that can be applied to my trees.

You could likely get some help with direction for it, by starting a thread for it. Lots of ficus guys here. Ficus do ramify quite well, but this one seems a ways off that, seems like you know that already.

 

[Baku1875]

You could likely get some help with direction for it, by starting a thread for it. Lots of ficus guys here. Ficus do ramify quite well, but this one seems a ways off that, seems like you know that already.

relevant to this thread, im gonna use the rules and cut the two outer branches of the 3 this year and get back budding, get them into position and beef them up until January, then cut the middle vertical to get a late start in Feb so the shoots are automatically going to be lagging behind. I got it in the shallow pot in Feb of this year but I shoulda chopped the long thick branches then.
But the plan is to use some of the rules and chop timing to favor taper, then from there it's ramification pruning. I can get ramification in the current iteration with gradual pruning but the 3 monster branches are an eyesore IMO and distract from the cool lower trunk.

it's an example where rules will help guide the design to a more appealing aesthetic.

From there, I can break some rules and try out of the box design choices, but it will be a much better tree if i follow the rules and try to get a nice taper that leads to ramification and pad creation.

Moral of the story, rules are good. It's a roadmap to a more complex and cohesive design.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Haha!!! Damn!!

I thought I would be able to mic-drop and walk away!!!



Things got heavy after I left!



Garlic a-O-li....

Continental condiment war!!!!

I love ayoo lee. Look at you building bridges here. Very diplomatic!

 

[michaelj]

I care about what people think about my bonsai, I just don't let it steer the decisions I make on my trees. Rules for a creative endeavor seems like an oxymoron to me. Creating something has an air of uniqueness in my mind. If you are trying to make something according to what has existed before, you are not doing art...........you are doing something else. Not right or wrong ......just different. Sub-par trees?? Not by my standard. Sub-par by somebody else's standards? I'll have to go with "So?" again.

"So?" is a great response to any criticism, at least internally. Of course, depending on the context, it can come off as obnoxious - being purposelessly oppositional is as bad as being pedantic - but even then, the same question can be asked in another way, like "oh, okay, is that important?" or "why is that important?"

The key is paying attention to their answer, if they have one. Sometimes, when asking why, or so what, to a comment about a tree, the answer is well worth considering. Other times, it's useless.
"Because in five years, that spot will swell up like a balloon compared to the trunk line above and below it, and your tree will look like it has a tumor" will make me rethink a decision to break the rules. Catching something I looked past will, too. "You made it look like a capital E..." or "that deadwood makes the tree look ... horny" will give me pause, and yeah, I'll take that into consideration the next time I have concave cutters in my hand.

"That's just how you're supposed to do it", however, won't persuade me, nor will citing a specific rule that wouldn't make the tree look any better. If following the rule would make my tree look more like a bonsai than like a tree, I'll frequently disregard it.