Trident Maple Strange Apex Design Help

[MrG]

Hey B Nuts,

Hope you’re having a nice holiday. I have a Michael Steinhardt Trident which has had a challenging last few years. Overall, it’s doing great now, but it took me cracking its code, then some chops, and a repot to get it happy.

My question for you all is, what do you think I should do with this design? It’s _almost_ got cool potential with the new apical growth at the top, but it’s so contorted I’m not sure how I could make it work.

I will say, I am a lover of natural and wild looking trees - not looking for rigid conformity to tradition on this one (or in general) - but of course I want my trees to be pleasant to view, tell an interesting story, etc.

First photos are what I am thinking should be the front, second photo from back, then some close ups of the top and into the branching.

Thanks in advance for any help!







All best,
MG

 

[Cmd5235]

Personally I would plant this in a bigger container or the ground and let it grow for a few years. That trunk would thicken nicely. After that, a good chop should give you decent buds to work with and run from there.

The issue I see besides this apex is that second branch- thicker than the first. Yes, you could prune this one aggressively and let the bottom one go for a bit to thicken, but I would probably just let the whole thing go and redo it from there.

 

[rockm]

It’s all good to like wild natural looking bonsai. Thing is achieving that takes more work than traditional styles

This tree need a significant amount of work to get anywhere. First it’s too tall for the trunk diameter. Bonsai - wild or traditional styles- require some perspective visually. Trunk diameter vs height is one of those visual perspective. Tall thin trunks look like young trees. Shorter trunks make smaller diameter trunks look more substantial. Something to think about.

Any good bonsai requires a decent nebari or interesting base. This one has neither.
Also don’t make the beginners mistake of thinking the existing branching can be used in a final design. Mostly it won’t. Thinking so limits possibilities in design. Branching particularly on trident maples is replaceable and should be here.

If this were mine I’d plant it out in the ground for five years and simply grow the trunk and nebari.

 

[Shibui]

My question for you all is, what do you think I should do with this design? It’s _almost_ got cool potential with the new apical growth at the top, but it’s so contorted I’m not sure how I could make it work.

Natural and non conformist is all very well but our trees are made to look at and enjoy. That generally means flow and that twisted top just doesn't have what it takes to look good IMHO, especially when all the lower branches are conventional. If you're going to have contorted somewhere on the tree it probably needs to be repeated through the entire tree to make it look more natural.

I'd be looking to replace the current twisted apex with something that matches the lower part of the tree. I can see a couple of possibilities:
1. Cut that twisted one way back. You should get new shoots emerge from the base of it. There may already be a small shoot growing there? If you want to keep the vertical trunk look this is probably the best option for this tree.
2. Chop the trunk back so one of the lower branches becomes the new trunk. looks like that 3rd branch emerges at 90 deg or lower? so probably not a great spot but the 2nd branch appears to be more upright so could be a candidate. You'll need to check in person to see if it's achievable. tilting the whole trunk to the right might make the new angle flow better.
That 2nd option may seem extreme or backward step but I suspect it could make a much better bonsai in a few years. Lowering the height will improve trunk height/thickness ratio. Leaning the trunk should make it appear more dynamic and interesting.

 

[MrG]

Hi all!

First, thank you so much for this thoughtful advice. I want to overall respond that I am very well-aware and appreciative of the difficulties in making a wild/non-traditional tree work. I definitely do NOT think it just means do whatever I feel like, or let it all grow wild.

In this tree’s case, I got it when it was sort of neglected, then I had to learn its issues and what was at play, and then I repotted to help its situation out.

In the interest of fun and discourse, I will respond to a few specific points below:

The issue I see besides this apex is that second branch- thicker than the first. Yes, you could prune this one aggressively and let the bottom one go for a bit to thicken, but I would probably just let the whole thing go and redo it from there.

Yep definitely an issue. I’m going to try to remedy possibly using this suggestion, or by making this the apex.

@rockm :
This tree need a significant amount of work to get anywhere. First it’s too tall for the trunk diameter. Bonsai - wild or traditional styles- require some perspective visually. Trunk diameter vs height is one of those visual perspective. Tall thin trunks look like young trees. Shorter trunks make smaller diameter trunks look more substantial. Something to think about.

Any good bonsai requires a decent nebari or interesting base. This one has neither.
Also don’t make the beginners mistake of thinking the existing branching can be used in a final design. Mostly it won’t. Thinking so limits possibilities in design. Branching particularly on trident maples is replaceable and should be here.

Definitely feel this of course. I have let the branching go to build strength, but had planned on keeping it all tighter to make a thinner but taller more feminine tree. Also, really I haven’t landed on any primary design decisions at all, so it was a matter of preserving/saving the tree.

Re the nebari, this actually had a super wild nebari that I buried in hopes for new roots to grow from within and possibly allow for future raising. It’s gnarly as hell, and it had wrapped all in and around itself due to being root bound, so again I sort of preserved the option. It is however wider and more interesting than what you see here, so maybe it’ll end up being used.

@Shibui
That generally means flow and that twisted top just doesn't have what it takes to look good IMHO, especially when all the lower branches are conventional. If you're going to have contorted somewhere on the tree it probably needs to be repeated through the entire tree to make it look more natural.

I'd be looking to replace the current twisted apex with something that matches the lower part of the tree. I can see a couple of possibilities:
1. Cut that twisted one way back. You should get new shoots emerge from the base of it. There may already be a small shoot growing there? If you want to keep the vertical trunk look this is probably the best option for this tree.
2. Chop the trunk back so one of the lower branches becomes the new trunk. looks like that 3rd branch emerges at 90 deg or lower? so probably not a great spot but the 2nd branch appears to be more upright so could be a candidate. You'll need to check in person to see if it's achievable. tilting the whole trunk to the right might make the new angle flow better.
That 2nd option may seem extreme or backward step but I suspect it could make a much better bonsai in a few years. Lowering the height will improve trunk height/thickness ratio. Leaning the trunk should make it appear more dynamic and interesting.

This is super helpful and what I was hoping to hear. I think your option 2 may be exactly the move. The apex was previously scarred badly, and then chopped by someone else, and now we’re here. I think I will see about making it a shorter stouter tree, and utilizing that angle.

Regarding chopping, is it too late in the year for a chop do we all think? I’m imagining so, but I can take good care of it as needed if it’s not too late, as I work from home.

Thank you all again - this was very enjoyable. I’ve included a few photos below of the nebari which is under the surface now.

All best,
MG

 

[Shibui]

The apex was previously scarred badly, and then chopped by someone else, and now we’re here.

I recognise the symptoms. Such trunks are relatively common and are often handed down to newbies to deal with. Not ideal as they are but there's always a strategy to try for improvement.

The roots are all relatively vertical. Not particularly awe inspiring nebari so the roots will not preclude tilting the trunk to give it more interest and to bring that 2nd branch more upright. I would go one step further and layer for better spreading nebari that will also match the new trunk angle - should you choose to go that way.
Here's a quick and dirty virt to illustrate what I'm talking about.

Trunk tilted to bring the n2nd branch more upright as a new trunk line. Ground layer at an angle to match the trunk tilt - red line.
That should give you an all round, horizontal root layer parallel to the soil surface = much better deciduous nebari.

You'll be chopping back to a strong, healthy branch so that can be done virtually any time of year. I don't know Tennessee growing season but we've only just passed your Summer solstice so there should be no problem chopping now but happy to defer to any locals who may have an alternative opinion.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Tridents are extremelyvstrong and versatile plants and will back bud vigorously when chopped. It is common to grow out a trunk and then chopmit to a single trunk and completely regrow a desirable branch structure. We recently had the 17 year cicada hatch here and they tore through my grow bed of tridents some of which were over 8’ tall. I chopped them down to 12-16” stumps and now the yrunks are cover3d with masses of new branches that I can select from for the next stage. Don’t be afraid—be bold or go home empty handed!