Two kinds of bonsai attitudes: Realists verses Traditionalists, or the Good Guys verses...

[Clicio]

I guess this thread exhausted itself.
It was pointless at the beginning, it is absolutely boring by now.

And you are not @Wulfskaar, and his trees are not your trees, so you can consider it whatever you like.

What I really consider right now is that you are being unnecessarily rude to me and to my opinions about bonsai.
Let it be.
I'm off this thread anyway.

 

[Haines' Trees]

What I really consider right now is that you are being unnecessarily rude to me and to my opinions.

There was nothing rude about what was said, unless you include your comment about happy accidents being trash by definition. All that was said was that you can have your perspective while others can have theirs. The nature of art is to change and evolve. Humanity started with painting animals in caves and now we’ve apparently moved on to taping bananas to walls. In my book that may not be art, but apparently I’m wrong and behind the times since it was appraised at such a high price by people who have probably studied art for many years more than me.

What I took from @Wulfskaar ’s comment about happy accidents is that, for people without many years of practice and experience, there isn’t always a roadmap to get from nursery stock to award winning bonsai. I fumbled through this hobby for a few years being proud of my sticks in pots before I joined my local bonsai society and actually got a chance to show my work to others in person and pick their brains and learn what/how they think. Even with these resources I’m still not capable of producing award winners.

Dont be such a snowflake and accept that others can have their own view. In 20 years you might be looking at a happy accident that is far superior to anything anyone has seen.

 

[Forsoothe!]

We're not done in this thread until we come to some general agreement that there is more than one way to skin the cat. I think we can come close to agreeing that the amount of effort and to a lesser extent amount of time exerted are closely correlated to the quality of the tree. We want to see all kinds presented here, and in every stage of development. It's important to have greenies feel free to show sticks in the pot because they need to hear opinions from many people on what to do next. The same could be said for more experienced hands. Sometimes the advice will be pretty much the same from all, sometimes there will be diametrically different paths to different ends, and everything in-between. New and old hands are introduced to different forms. @BobbyLane has a style all his own and constantly demonstrates his art to the whole world which would not likely see a demo of this form in our own backyards. There are others who have unique experiences with species we have never heard of from the far corners of the world. Whether someone likes or dislikes Japanese disciplines, there is a lot to learn from practitioners of the formal side of bonsai. We can also learn from the biologists, chemists, botanists, professional hort trained and hobby gardeners, wood carvers and people with just about every kind of artistic background. Only a world-wide forum would allow this wide variety of people to interact at every hour of the day.

With all this variety of inputs, why would we choose to have a single "standard" of what is "good" bonsai? Maybe what we have here is a failure to communicate. Maybe we do need new names for the outcomes. Who among us is willing to give up the moniker "bonsai" to the other side?

 

[MrWunderful]

Im not seeing where all these divisions are being made. Who is standing up and saying “good bonsai has to be like X or its terrible!”

I feel like that is made up. If you want to be in a show, then you have to abide by their judging criteria. I don’t think anyone is stopping anybody from starting their own show, and having the trees be judged on how identical they are to real trees, and things like nebari and movement dont matter.

Shows and awards are the only metric. And its a poor metric, because its based on specific judging criteria, which can be actually anything.

If shows and awards aren’t your thing the. just grow whatever you want and who cares what anyone else thinks.

 

[Adair M]

Naturalistic trees are certainly acceptable in a show as well as traditional bonsai. Good bonsa are good bonsai regardless of styles. Walter Pall makes nice naturalistic bonsai. They don’t have bad nebari, though.

Each bonsai artist has their own vision as to what bonsai should be. Even in Japan, styles differ. Just look at the apprentices who have returned from Japan: Bjorn’s style is different than Ryan’s and both are different than Tyler’s.

 

[Vance Wood]

What basically is going on here is the ramblings of the growers of plants to come up with a justifications for bonsai. Rather than accept bonsai for what it is or has been they instead attempt to justify something else they cannot define. Unfortunately; instead of coming up with design principles that are pleasing they fight against the traditional as cookie cutter trees and complain about the modern liberal designs as not being bonsai not following the rules and concepts established by generations of those who have preceeded them. The real problem is that bonsai is for all intents and purposes a spiritual endeavor. When spirituality is left out of the work, the work becomes without a soul, artistically dead and boring having no voice as to where it came from or how it got the way it is. This is why Yamadori trees are so important to bonsai art. Of course if you ask how do you put spirituality into bonsai you are not likely to find an answer easily grasped.

 

[Slippery Pete]

For me, bonsai is a miniature tree in a pot. Full stop.

It can be an idealistic representation of a tree with fantastic features of all kinds, or it can be a realistic representation with proper proportions. The two outlooks are not mutually exclusive and only a true fool would believe that it's one or the other. As the title of this post hints at, bonsai is not black and white. Anyone who claims otherwise ought to put a check on their ego.

 

[leatherback]

To me, it comes down to achieve the final stage..

Bonsai is a small tree in a container that looks like an (often ancient) large tree​

Bonsai are often created to represent an old tree with life experience. With well-developed mature bark all the way up into the branches. Without any clear marks of tools or human intervention. A tree that even upon close scrutiny, does not reveal the process that created it.

That does not mean you cannot have carved stuff though..

 

[Maros]

Without any clear marks of tools or human intervention. A tree that even upon close scrutiny, does not reveal the process that created it.

Pretty strict definition, mate. How do you deal with trees which obviously look like Edward Scissorhands took care of them?

 

[leatherback]

How do you deal with trees which obviously look like Edward Scissorhands took care of them?

Not sure what you mean?
How I look at it: If a branch is removed you have a fw options:

- Work towards the cut healing over
- Carve it so it looks like naturally broken & worn / rotted over time
- Make a hollow / uro

What in my eyes you want to avoid is clearly man-made (tool)marks.

It is what I strive for, and what directs my choices. The nearer you get to that stage, the better the trees, in my eyes.

 

[Maros]

avoid is clearly man-made

...so clearly man-made tool marks on the tree are a problem, that's clear.

What about clearly man-made trees?
Clearly man-made branches?

 

[leatherback]

What about clearly man-made trees?
Clearly man-made branches?

example?

I am not sure what man-made branches would be. But maybe this helps how I see it.

looks like an (often ancient) large tree

 

[Maros]

example?

I am not sure what man-made branches would be. But maybe this helps how I see it.

My point is almost all traditional conifer bonsai even without close scrutiny, does reveal the process that created it.

 

[leatherback]

My point is almost all traditional conifer bonsai even without close scrutiny, does reveal the process that created it.

I think I disagree.

you KNOW that it was man-made.
You do not SEE it was man-made.

To me, there is a difference.

Like this tree. It did not grow like this. I know that. De deadwood was probably extensively carved. The bend on top was enforced, at least. All the branches were placed where they are. But there are no telling signs that this is a the case. It was masterfully done. It is bonsai at a high level.

Bonsai Bark | Promoting and Expanding the Bonsai Universe | Page 128

 

[Maros]

You do not SEE it was man-made.

OK then

 

[leatherback]

One of my former trees, a ficus. Big chop because it was one of those ikea figs, with the top dead.

I am no baddely so the carving is crude. The aim is to give the impression of natural decay. The step from a straight-sawed top (Obvious non-natural) to irregularly recessed wood is the first stage in creating the illusion of naturally shaped. That is how I see it. The skill is in hiding the work done.



But feel free to explain your vision, rather than try to poke holes in mine.

 

[Maros]

But feel free to explain your vision, rather than try to poke holes in mine.

Sorry to hurt your feelings. Was not my intention honestly. I'm more-less explaining my vision with my work. Generally, I try to imagine if the tree COULD have been growing like this in the natural landscape or not. Kinda like WP is photoshopping his trees to landscape time to time, it is the test of some sorts. Not easy to pass this kind of testing and hiding man-made manipulation. This is not about good or bad, but it is about artistic freedom. If you want to create something and it will create feelings at observer it is working. And there are different artistic objects and different observers.
So, the questions are: Is there a space for a wide range of bonsai creations not necessarily strictly adhering to narrow definitions or not? Can multiple genres exist next to each other?
I think yes.

 

[leatherback]

Sorry to hurt your feelings.

No worries. No hurt feelings

I try to imagine if the tree COULD have been growing like this in the natural landscape or not.

To me, this sounds like a similar perspective as I have.
Core to the quality of the work to me is: Could I see this growing somewhere; Did the artist succesfully hide how the tree was built. The less obvious the touch of mankind, the better the tree, for me.

Is there a space for a wide range of bonsai creations not necessarily strictly adhering to narrow definitions or not?

I think there is. And it is highly subjective. But to me, it is more than just pulling a sapling from the ground, putting it in a pot and shouting "Voila"

 

[ralf]

For me the technique is not enough. I believe that we should also keep in mind the natural forms the given species grow. Not to follow it 100% but take it as a ground. ( A forrest is not a good place to study though )
The Kimura's yew looks quite strange and not realistic to me. It is more about Master's skills than about the yew. But saying so I am happy to admit that sometimes I can see in the Nature some forms that I would never ever believe that that is possible for given species.

 

[Forsoothe!]

What basically is going on here is the ramblings of the growers of plants to come up with a justifications for bonsai. Rather than accept bonsai for what it is or has been they instead attempt to justify something else they cannot define. Unfortunately; instead of coming up with design principles that are pleasing they fight against the traditional as cookie cutter trees and complain about the modern liberal designs as not being bonsai not following the rules and concepts established by generations of those who have preceeded them. The real problem is that bonsai is for all intents and purposes a spiritual endeavor. When spirituality is left out of the work, the work becomes without a soul, artistically dead and boring having no voice as to where it came from or how it got the way it is. This is why Yamadori trees are so important to bonsai art. Of course if you ask how do you put spirituality into bonsai you are not likely to find an answer easily grasped.

Up pops the devil. The One True Way.