Valavanis pot grown technique - how to?

[badatusernames]

People talk about how Bill Valavanis pot-grows all of his trees, and I was just curious if anyone had deeper information on exactly how it's done.

On the one hand, it's easy to envision growing out a tree in a regular nursery pot with regular dirt and chopping it, but I don't know that that's what people are talking about.

I watched this wonderful Bonsai Q video on zelkova:

And they appear to be pot growing as well, but instead of growing a tree out tall first and then chopping, it looks like they really do start from seedling and then shape and grow it like a normal bonsai, over long periods of time. I'm curious if this is actually how Bill grew his trees, or if perhaps I'm missing something.

I believe - could be wrong - that Bill even fully grows trees in ceramic bonsai pots for their whole life, but I can't imagine he's growing it out to ten feet tall before chopping when using that method.

Curious to hear if anyone has feedback on this, since it seems to run counter to what we usually discuss re: heavy chopping. Thanks!

 

[Ruddigger]

Theres another YouTube channel, bonsai shinshi that does a lot of this. You end up with a nice tree, it just takes a lot longer to get big.

Step one, start young. Step two, get old.

 

[Matte91]

In Japan they made those zelkova broom style trees from seedlings.

In Denmark we have a guy called Martin Nielsen. His famous for his broom style elms. He ones made these drawings. Perhaps they a usefull for somebody.

 

[badatusernames]

Theres another YouTube channel, bonsai shinshi that does a lot of this. You end up with a nice tree, it just takes a lot longer to get big.

Step one, start young. Step two, get old.

Makes sense! I may give this a shot, I have a few younger maples that may be good for it

 

[cockroach]

Theres another YouTube channel, bonsai shinshi that does a lot of this. You end up with a nice tree, it just takes a lot longer to get big.

Step one, start young. Step two, get old.

Did not know about this channel. Thanks for sharing.

 

[SeanS]

Tane Bonsai has posted many videos of how Mr Yajima grows Zelkova brooms from seed over the past 3 years. It’s constant clip and grow and a little wire here and there. There are too many videos to post, you’d have to look back through all the videos to find all the Zelkova seedling videos.
Also plenty of shohin maple growing videos, all grown in small pots with constant work a number of times throughout the seasons.

https://youtube.com/@tane.bonsai

 

[MMJNICE]

So I've been growing trees with sacrifice branches at the base of the trunk or somewhat close to the base to thicken and add better taper to the trees. So far I've tried this technique on a Zelkova broom and an silver maple with some Success in one growing season. The maple sacrifice branch is taller than the main tree as well as the Zelkova sack branch..Each branch was started last growing season and as long as I can keep the branch from Dividing into Multiple branches competing too much with the main trunk structure I plan to keep them growing. The chop shouldn't been to bad once it's done its job as long as it's not on a frontal view..

 

[ACooke]

In Japan they made those zelkova broom style trees from seedlings.

In Denmark we have a guy called Martin Nielsen. His famous for his broom style elms. He ones made these drawings. Perhaps they a usefull for somebody. View attachment 523415

Excuse my ignorance here.
Is the above two separate methods? The left seems simple enough but the right - is he trunk-chopping then grafting a bunch of branches directly in to the trunk?

Love it. Literally - a - broom hahah

 

[Matte91]

Excuse my ignorance here.
Is the above two separate methods? The left seems simple enough but the right - is he trunk-chopping then grafting a bunch of branches directly in to the trunk?

Love it. Literally - a - broom hahah

View attachment 523450

Yes. It's two different techniques. He is trunk chopping. The tree then respons with lots of new growth. Here is a video explaining the technique:

 

[ACooke]

Yes. It's two different techniques. He is trunk chopping. The tree then respons with lots of new growth. Here is a video explaining the technique:

Ah, that makes better sense.
Thanks!

 

[pandacular]

Bjorn also mentions that in Japan, for many species of deciduous tree, most of the best trees are pot grown their whole life. I understand that Tokoname training pots are popular for this purpose and they come in a variety of sizes; the dimensions and materials (quite different from our similar looking terra cotta) are said to produce excellent roots.

You’ll sooner grow yourself out of a good design than go unrewarded for your patience

Sorce, according to someone’s signature.

 

[ShadyStump]

Step one, start young. Step two, get old.

Already done!

Not sure how me getting old helps my trees, though.

 

[badatusernames]

Tane Bonsai has posted many videos of how Mr Yajima grows Zelkova brooms from seed over the past 3 years. It’s constant clip and grow and a little wire here and there. There are too many videos to post, you’d have to look back through all the videos to find all the Zelkova seedling videos.
Also plenty of shohin maple growing videos, all grown in small pots with constant work a number of times throughout the seasons.

https://youtube.com/@tane.bonsai

Thank you! I hadn’t heard of that one!

 

[badatusernames]

Bjorn also mentions that in Japan, for many species of deciduous tree, most of the best trees are pot grown their whole life. I understand that Tokoname training pots are popular for this purpose and they come in a variety of sizes; the dimensions and materials (quite different from our similar looking terra cotta) are said to produce excellent roots.


Sorce, according to someone’s signature.

I’ve even heard of it being done in “shallow” (I don’t know how shallow) bonsai pots. I saw an instagram post by Matt Ouwinga where he grew out a branch very long to thicken it in a shallow oval.

But yeah the Yokohama pots are great, I wish I had gotten more when I had the chance. I loaded up pretty good but there are other sizes I wouldn’t mind getting my hands on.

Bonsai Q regularly shows deeper ones that I think would be great.

Further, I’ve seen a video - and now totally forget where - where they basically cut one of these tokoname pots in half, and then fit the bottom half in the top half to make a shallower pot. Not sure what they did to make the cut, but pots about half the depth of what we get here would be very handy too.

I wonder how growing in these pots compares to a wooden box…

I find it interesting that many people in the US say growing in shallow pots simply won’t ever work, when I see what Bill has accomplished. I’m only 40 so I may actually have the time to make something decent if I start now. Technically, I suppose I’m already a few years in on some, but I haven't actually been shaping them much really. Which means I also have stuff I could use to make one via purely the clip and grow method.

I think momiji-en uses this technique too. Just grabbing random video of theirs to share in case folks haven’t seen them:

 

[RJG2]

Further, I’ve seen a video - and now totally forget where - where they basically cut one of these tokoname pots in half, and then fit the bottom half in the top half to make a shallower pot. Not sure what they did to make the cut, but pots about half the depth of what we get here would be very handy too.

I believe this was bonsai shinshi, but don't remember which video.

 

[Bob Hunter]

My pines are all grown in pots JWP every 3 years I up potted and let them grow for 25 years with no trimming Just some wiring.