Warning!!!!!

irene_b

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In light of the issue with Ebay that Bnut posted and the Maple thread.
My Question to all mods,forum members,lurkers,etc..
Should we have a Warning Thread for people like this?
Mom
 
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Okay, here's the warning...


Caveat Emptor


Do we really have to tell people in this day and age to check references, buy from a reputable business, ask others in the community about the business, if it sounds too good to be true it probably is, pay with a credit card (most protection against scams), use common sense, and so on???


Will
 
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irene_b

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Okay, here's the warning...


Caveat Emptor


Do we really have to tell people in this day and age to check references, buy from a reputable business, ask others in the community about the business, if it sounds too good to be true it probably is, pay with a credit card (most protection against scams), use common sense, and so on???
Will


On the issue with Chefdave (aka all the other names he has gone by ) it was listed on e-bay!
And he has been banned from there as well over this one and several others who he has stiffed as well as shilling.
Chefdave had Concorde send the payment with a money order. As a buyer from e-bay this is not uncommon. Chefdave had claimed that all his bonsai had just been stole. (proven to be a lie as well)..
What I am talking about is from buying from anyone that does this kind of thing.
Why not have a place where we can check it out?
Mom
 

Graydon

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No.

There seems to be enough crap to sort thru I would not like to deal with complaints about sellers and the like - that could clog up a site rather quickly. How about we focus negative energy in to positive things and add people and vendors to the appropriate area here so newcomers and lurkers have reference on who we like and why?

I don't mind looking and answering (if I have knowledge) about sellers if people are unsure and want to ask opinions by starting a new thread or adding to a vendor experience thread already on the forum.

Just a thought...
 

Tachigi

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Irene, I think you would open a legal can of worms if someone was "LISTED" and it turned out that he was on the up and up. I have had a couple of people spread malicious rumors about Shady Side. These rumors were unfounded and definitely untrue as posted on some other forums. These rumors took me a year of Sundays to chase down a prove unfounded. It definitely hurt business for a while.

I think if anyone wants to buy from a person ask for references from the seller to people that have bought from him....also check with members of the forum.
 
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Irene, I think you would open a legal can of worms if someone was "LISTED" and it turned out that he was on the up and up. I have had a couple of people spread malicious rumors about Shady Side. These rumors were unfounded and definitely untrue as posted on some other forums. These rumors took me a year of Sundays to chase down a prove unfounded. It definitely hurt business for a while.

I think if anyone wants to buy from a person ask for references from the seller to people that have bought from him....also check with members of the forum.
Perhaps had you rethought the name "Shady Side?":rolleyes::):eek:
 

Graydon

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Perhaps had you rethought the name "Shady Side?":rolleyes::):eek:
Oh crap. That was funny. Tom is "good people" and I never thought for a second that implication of the name. I laughed out loud.
 

Bonsai Nut

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I'm a big believer in positive feedback - i.e. you don't have it, I'm not gonna buy from you. Also, tenure on an auction site means something as well. An account that is two years old with constant activity has more credibility than one created last week. Also check the TYPE of the feedback - i.e. the items sold. If someone has 50 positive feedback from selling bic lighters, and then posts a $2000 tree, you might want to reconsider. At the bare minimum ask for a phone number and call the person on the phone first.
 

Tachigi

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Thank you. My work here is done.
Everyone wants to be a comedian .....whether they can pull it off is a whole different story:)
 
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Boondock

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irene_b, I think the fact that only 1 or 2% of the people interested in bonsai are active bonsai forum readers, have probably seen the thread at bTALK, or know somebody who have dealings with him, His typing/writing style was discovered here very quickly, it's about all that can be done to alert the community.

Outside of the electronic world, it would be near impossible to scam somebody, because it would be a "cash in hand" and "tree in sight" kinda thing.

It just goes to prove, that when a single person has wronged one or more people in the community, the whole community needs to be informed. Bravo to bTALK for allowing the thread to continue and allowing all the dirty laundry to air. If the thread would have been deleted or censored, people here may have fallen prey to the exact same scam.

Information about scammers, wrong-doer's, thieves and "perpetrators of other maleficences", should be well known and public.


The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.







.
 
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Vance Wood

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You have to be careful that you can LEGALLY make the distinction between a wrong doer and one with which you, or someone else, may have a personal bone to pick. This is a dangerous thing to do and in its own way may do as much or more WRONG than what someone may be accused of. We do have the principle in this country of being assumed innocent until proven guilty. To someone upon which this kind of vigilante justice may fall, as has been pointed out already, they are left with the unenviable, albeit impossible task, of proving a negative. Even when sheltered by a screen name a determined lawyer can find where and by who this kind of information originated and there is the possibility of legal actions.
 
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You have to be careful that you can LEGALLY make the distinction between a wrong doer and one with which you, or someone else, may have a personal bone to pick. This is a dangerous thing to do and in its own way may do as much or more WRONG than what someone may be accused of. We do have the principle in this country of being assumed innocent until proven guilty. To someone upon which this kind of vigilante justice may fall, as has been pointed out already, they are left with the unenviable, albeit impossible task, of proving a negative. Even when sheltered by a screen name a determined lawyer can find where and by who this kind of information originated and there is the possibility of legal actions.
What are we talking about here?
 

Graydon

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What are we talking about here?
I am assuming liable.

From Wiki :

"In law, defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against criticism."

also

"In most legal systems the courts give the benefit of the doubt to the defendant. In criminal law, he or she is presumed innocent until the prosecution can prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt; whereas in civil law, he or she is presumed innocent until the plaintiff can show liability on a balance of probabilities. However, the common law of libel contains a kind of reverse-onus feature: a defamatory statement is presumed to be false unless the defendant can prove its truth. Furthermore, to collect compensatory damages, a public official or public figure must prove actual malice (knowing falsity or reckless disregard for the truth). A private individual must only prove negligence (not using due care) to collect compensatory damages. In order to collect punitive damages, all individuals must prove actual malice. The definition of "public figure" has varied over the years."
 

Vance Wood

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irene_b, I think the fact that only 1 or 2% of the people interested in bonsai are active bonsai forum readers, have probably seen the thread at bTALK, or know somebody who have dealings with him, His typing/writing style was discovered here very quickly, it's about all that can be done to alert the community.

Outside of the electronic world, it would be near impossible to scam somebody, because it would be a "cash in hand" and "tree in sight" kinda thing.

It just goes to prove, that when a single person has wronged one or more people in the community, the whole community needs to be informed. Bravo to bTALK for allowing the thread to continue and allowing all the dirty laundry to air. If the thread would have been deleted or censored, people here may have fallen prey to the exact same scam.

Information about scammers, wrong-doer's, thieves and "perpetrators of other maleficences", should be well known and public.


The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.







.
The above was what I was responding to.
 

Boondock

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Mr Vance Wood, I very very carefully choose words and phases. If you read my post no where does it state anything about SHANNON or refer to him directly or indirectly.

defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim
If somebody was banned from several websites (eBay and bonsaiTALK for example) for "improper conduct" , and somebody says, "Well, he was banned for improper conduct regarding the sale of a tree" That's not defamation...

...thats what we call "the truth"

(Disclaimer--This post was not referring to a single individual, it is entirely hypothetical with no intention to harm, insult, libel, or defame)
 
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Vance Wood

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Mr Vance Wood, I very very carefully choose words and phases. If you read my post no where does it state anything about SHANNON or refer to him directly or indirectly.



If somebody was banned from several websites (eBay and bonsaiTALK for example) for "improper conduct" , and somebody says, "Well, he was banned for improper conduct regarding the sell of a tree" That's not defamation...

...thats what we call "the truth"

(Disclaimer--This post was not referring to a single individual, it is entirely hypothetical with no intention to harm, insult, libel, or defame)
You are reading things into my statement that I did not say, I merely stated a warning against a general vendetta against someone, some business, or some other entity for crimes real or imagined. Assigning any other meaning to my words may be Freudian in nature but most certainly not based in reality.
 

Boondock

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deciphering your cryptic writing is difficult for me, my apologies for not making my statement more clear. I still have no idea what you are attempting to say...
 
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