Went to Cut Back Maples

Sorry but slip potting does not always work any time. I have seen lots of cases where the new soil is so much different to the old root ball that a connection cannot be made so water will not travel across the boundary and roots will not cross. Trees have died from dehydration because the old soil does not get properly wet even though the new fresh mix is damp.
Slip potting is a good technique but there are possible risks.
 
Sorry but slip potting does not always work any time. I have seen lots of cases where the new soil is so much different to the old root ball that a connection cannot be made so water will not travel across the boundary and roots will not cross. Trees have died from dehydration because the old soil does not get properly wet even though the new fresh mix is damp.
Slip potting is a good technique but there are possible risks.
That's interesting. I can see that happening. Is loosening the newer roots gently so that they "fuse" into the new soil considered tramatic to the tree? I am curious if it is a safer bet without the tree needing as much time to recover.
 
Loosening the roots around the edges of the root ball when slip potting should not worry a tree. Not sure about over there but all our garden gurus speak of tickling the roots of potted plants when planting them in the ground to make sure there is good contact between roots, old soil and new. That advice applies regardless of the time of year. Not sure why we as bonsai growers have to have a different set of rules for exactly the same trees and procedures.
Very light root pruning at any time on (nearly?) all species is possible.
If the loss of a few roots killed any tree there would probably be no trees now as trees in the ground wage a constant war with root eating creatures and still manage to prosper.

Another problem that has occurred with slip potting is to go too big with the pot. I've seen it mentioned a number of times that commercial growers have found it best to just go up 1 or 2 pot sizes each time. Putting a tiny plant into a big pot does not always work. Mix without roots can go sour? and the tree will then not do well despite having lots of room. Pots are not the same as the ground.
 
The first order of business is to grow-up or chop back or otherwise create the basic architecture of major branches, then minor branches, then refinement AFTER you get the basic architecture you create a canopy shape in your mind's eye. Then you pinch, hedge or otherwise edit according to whatever philosophy or seasonal pattern that suits your soul. Maples have successive flushes and respond to trimming pretty quickly. You need to get to the point where your pinching is just removing some outer buds to redirect growth elsewhere instead of stealing a lot energy that was used to create a lot those buds or leaves or wood. You can't refine until after you create the basic architecture, and conversely you do not remove much wood after the major architecture has been grown. After that time you want to build lots of buds and you that by growing buds that you don't cut off. Remember that ramification is the process of getting two buds emerging from the base of each leaf, except from the primary leaf which puts out 1, 2, or rarely 3 new primaries that have a cluster of 3 buds which occurs naturally, but we can encourage two, or more secondaries to expand new primary buds out in the next flush by removing the primary via pinching. The process of shifting energy directed to the secondaries from the primary begins as soon as the primary is removed and pinching buds occurs sooner than removing the fully grown tip leaf. Once you get to the point of only pinching a few (relatively few) buds that are going to violate our imaginary canopy limits the pinching becomes minimal and the major effort shifts to maintaining a size rather than growing bigger or fuller and we give it a hedge trimming in autumn and pinch occationally in the growing season a minimal amount to remove the too strong or any that threatens to violate the canopy boundary.

Peter Tea has a basic set of rules he calls 1,2, 3, 4, 5. You accomplish each whole step before advancing to the next step because what you do in the next step interferes with what you want to accomplish in the previous steps. First, grow the tree to the point you're happy with the base/nebari. For that you need as many leaves as you can get. You don't pinch while you are doing major growing. You do one or the other. Second, after you're happy with the base you grow the trunk taper. Third, major branches in proportion. Forth, refine the architecture to cloud shape or canopy structure. Fifth, refine the canopy or layers. View the process from the kinds of wire you are using at any stage: when you are using 5mm you're not using much 1mm, in each stage you are using smaller and smaller wire to control smaller and more refined wood. You don't use any 1mm in the early steps, and you don't use any 5mm after the second step, The direct relationship between the surface area of leaves present and the amount of wood produced is absolute so you want to as many leaves as possible while growing major wood. The amount of ramification is also directly relative to the number of leaves you leave on the tree to double for next year.

Less than 20 buds have been remove from this 23" tree this spring to keep it within boundaries.
View attachment 301974
Can u elaborate on improving trunk taper, is it just by letting many branches grow as well as sacrifice branches? Or chopping and regrouping trunk a few times?
What if tree already has a decent base but non tapering, but no reverse taper trunk. Do u cut a thick trunk and wait for a tiny couple branches on the the lower side of the tree to grow into an apex ?
 
Taper is a function of growth over numbers of years. Each leaf, each branch contributes to the growth of the trunk lower than that branch. So the trunk below the lowest branch grows bigger with all the leaves on the tree for the entire life of the tree.
T1.JPG
The trunk below the upper parts of the trunk are only fed by the leaves above any particular section. The very top is often so new and fed by so few leaves for such a short time that it is comes to a point. To mimic this form in a bonsai tree you can chop a tree down to some height and grow a new top. The new top will be younger and smaller. Naturally, building taper in the new portion will take some time, years and years and years. It will be necessary to intend to grow the new top with a taper to get taper instead of just another section that a smaller diameter un-tapered trunk above the original un-tapered lower trunk. If you chop & grow a number of times, each time period shorter than the previous, you will have a tree with truncated taper and scars to prove it.
T3.JPG
The only way to have a twenty year old base is to start with a twenty year old tree, or grow a tree for twenty years. A tree that is grown in the ground will grow a great deal faster than a tree in a pot, maybe 3 or 4 times bigger or faster over the same period. To start with a 20 year old base and build taper into the final tree via chop & grow will either take a substantial number of years or have obvious truncated sections, or both.

Or, you can build taper the same way it's built in nature, only slower. The principal is simple enough: each layer which is intended to grow less than layer below it must have fewer leaves. It's easy enough to see this in nature. The lower branches are much bigger and wider than those above them on a lone tree out in the open. Those that have a lot of taper are pyramidal. Those that are round are generally straight and tapered little below the bottom foliage. Trees in a forest have bare trunks up to the bottom of the canopy, too, but that is usually much higher from the ground to the bottom of the canopy because there is no light to support the leaves from the sides of the trees in a forest. Forest trees don't have any taper to speak of.

To build taper by growing an existing tree, in or out of a pot, each ascending branch has to be maintained with proportionally fewer leaves than the one below it. Without getting too complicated, the drawing below illustrates the relationship that would need to be maintained to build taper, over time. Keep in mind that this is not absolutely correct. But it does show the relationship between the different diameters characterized by the number of dots wide and the proportional reduction in the number of leaves to support less growth. The top canopy needs to be minimal in order to not interfere with the calculations.
t2.JPG
Once this leaf surface relationship is not maintained the tree will grow in proportion to whatever the new relationship is, so if it's bonsai and you want to maintain the taper you have maintain the balance, or pretty close.
 
Thanks for the explanation. Now the question is if u have a beautiful base but a minimal tapering trunk going up. Do u chop and restart to get better taper or just live with it ?
 
Thanks for the explanation. Now the question is if u have a beautiful base but a minimal tapering trunk going up. Do u chop and restart to get better taper or just live with it ?
Let's see it. I am The Unchopper, others may have something intelligent to say. Or not.
 
Apologies for OP for hijacking the thread. Was more of a general question but here goes one with that scenario. Trunk only tapers from 5 cm diameter at blue line to 4 cm at red line, not really taper I guess.
Would chop it and at what level looking at minimal branching on it.
Screenshot_20200515-085334_Gallery.jpgScreenshot_20200515-085349_Gallery.jpgScreenshot_20200515-085409_Gallery.jpg
 
Without going all BobbyLane on it, you could chop either of these ways and watch for buds in good places, erasing duplicates and poorly positioned, especially clusters of buds, and grow them on. Wire them ASAP, it never gets easier. Face the back of the pot towards the maximum sun exposure to encourage buds there first, and then turn the pot to face any bud-poor areas. You have a nice nebari arrangement and it would be nice to have the new branches be well positioned so as to retain the front you currently have. The speed of recovery will depend heavily upon not allowing any poorly positioned buds to grow anywhere. You do not need growth, you need growth ONLY in the branches that are in well-placed positions, growing in exactly the attitude you want. Nothing superfluous. Observe the process as above to grow those branches in proportion to each other. Put it in a place where the branches can grow three feet wide/long and only prune each autumn for shape.
trid 1.JPG
trid 2.JPG

(P.S. I can't see the back of the tree which may have a branch which could be left to be your new leader. If so, and it utilizes a good nebari as potted, do so. I'm betting that this tree will not be able to be rotated in the pot without a lot of problems.)


Now comes Los Chopoleros...
 
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There's no rel definitive answer to the question.
Everyone sees bonsai differently. I would definitely chop a trunk to get better taper but others would persist (with inferior stock)
Small lower branches will eventually grow into better branches and apex but are you willing to commit the time?
Every tree is a different proposition. Every climate has a different answer and every grower has different expectations.

The answer is maybe.
 
Without going all BobbyLane on it, you could chop either of these ways and watch for buds in good places, erasing duplicates and poorly positioned, especially clusters of buds, and grow them on. Wire them ASAP, it never gets easier. Face the back of the pot towards the maximum sun exposure to encourage buds there first, and then turn the pot to face any bud-poor areas. You have a nice nebari arrangement and it would be nice to have the new branches be well positioned so as to retain the front you currently have. The speed of recovery will depend heavily upon not allowing any poorly positioned buds to grow anywhere. You do not need growth, you need growth ONLY in the branches that are in well-placed positions, growing in exactly the attitude you want. Nothing superfluous. Observe the process as above to grow those branches in proportion to each other. Put it in a place where the branches can grow three feet wide/long and only prune each autumn for shape.
View attachment 302908
View attachment 302910

(P.S. I can't see the back of the tree which may have a branch which could be left to be your new leader. If so, and it utilizes a good nebari as potted, do so. I'm betting that this tree will not be able to be rotated in the pot without a lot of problems.)


Now comes Los Chopoleros...
Thanks for the great info.
Wow didnt know u can chop the tree to no foliage as in second pic ?
Tree has couple branches in the back side
Screenshot_20200515-193600_Gallery.jpg
Back branches Seen from right side
Screenshot_20200515-193600_Gallery.jpg20200515_193742.jpg
Tes it can be easily rotated in pot on next repot as I just bare rooted and repoted it in April and it's in pumice and lava and a bit of pine bark. I doubt this mix will.ever make a heavy rootball.

There's no rel definitive answer to the question.
Everyone sees bonsai differently. I would definitely chop a trunk to get better taper but others would persist (with inferior stock)
Small lower branches will eventually grow into better branches and apex but are you willing to commit the time?
Every tree is a different proposition. Every climate has a different answer and every grower has different expectations.

The answer is maybe.
Yes willing to.commit the time.as it's a nice Nebari which Is hard to get here and would love to turn it into something nice. Also a chop would make me get rid of the ugly half rotten trunk chop.

Apologies to the OP for the thread hijack.
 
OK, wait until mid June, cut along the wire mark and save the bigger branch for your new leader. Keep as much foliage as it has, all the way to the end, and cut it back in autumn to a lower bud for next spring's growth starting point. I assumed it had not just been repotted.
trid 3.JPG
And, close off the wound with a heavy paste. If you use the Japanese stuff in the yellow tube put a big gob on and over-lap the edges of the bark. The thicker you put it on, the easier it will be to peel it off next spring, or whenever. If it is thin it will keep breaking off in little pieces when you go to remove it. You don't want to have a wound with little pieces of stuff stuck in the wood. If you don't have that, Elmer's or most any ~white~ wood glue can be used. (Not the "school" glue for kids) The wound will be prominent for many years and you'd like it to be clean looking.
 
Great info. Right side does have a nicer Base and a nicer subtle trunk movement I had missed. Thanks for all the explanation.
 
And, go out and secure an Atlas Cedar, Cedres atlantica, and a Cedar of Lebanon, Cedres libani which are ideal for your area. Don't get big ones that need a lot of chopping and redirection unless you like that kind of appearance. They are ideal for your climate and probably easy for you to grow well. I can't help much on their culture, but someone will.
 
And, go out and secure an Atlas Cedar, Cedres atlantica, and a Cedar of Lebanon, Cedres libani which are ideal for your area. Don't get big ones that need a lot of chopping and redirection unless you like that kind of appearance. They are ideal for your climate and probably easy for you to grow well. I can't help much on their culture, but someone will.
I was more into olives (still beginner though) till last year when I started collecting few spruce, junipers podocarpus, and cedrus lebani where I'm learning on these 5 trees just reported.last month.
These 3 have been worked on before (badly I.must say) although in nursery pots. Acquired few months and repoted
Screenshot_20200516-195839_Gallery.jpgScreenshot_20200516-195900_Gallery.jpgScreenshot_20200516-195931_Gallery.jpg
These 2 from nursery to pots last month
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And these I picked last week which I'll be learning with in a forest. Couldn't get a nice one for center tree still....

Screenshot_20200516-201046_Gallery.jpg
 
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Great! Someone will have expertise in these species.
 
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