Western Display Concepts

Yep, Frank Lloyd Wright comes to mind. Earlier, when I commented on the utilzation of abstract or non-representational art forms in conjunction with more traditional bonsai display forms, is was exactly what I had in mind in stating that, for me, it clashed. Think of the possiblilities of expanding on Lang's conceptions.
 
Well for one thing, a scroll with kanji on it is artistic even if you don't know what it says. True it means more when you know the whole picture and I can't argue that point for point.


but.....When a scroll with western words are hung it still does not convey the right feeling.


for instance...

If you walked up to this display, say a pine with whatever and the scroll was hung there with the words written for you to read, it would not mean as much to you as when you walked up and the kanji spoke to you but there was something missing, the final piece of the puzzle. The puzzle piece of course being what the message says. Someone tells you and you have an immediate feeling of understanding because you were left wondering with the kanji.


The western words are in your face and are overwhelming ruining the soft breezy feeling. Just ones man feelings.....

But that would not be the experience that a Japanese person has when they view the display with the kanji scroll. They would know what it says. So why don't they display scrolls with English on them so that they could experience it the same way, if that's the way its "supposed" to be experienced?

- bob
 
I'd like to think of it more as design forms. There can be a fine line between success and not-so-successful in mixing the organic and inorganic design elements. I think that whatever the display, there must be some elegant design restraint...BUT, I don't want to label it as abstract vs. representational. While Wright is on our mind, he, Rennie Mackintosh, Mucha, etc....they were all brilliant at taking organic and inorganic motifs and combining with success. At the same time their design sense was a nod to what the Japanese aesthetic was.
 
But that would not be the experience that a Japanese person has when they view the display with the kanji scroll. They would know what it says. So why don't they display scrolls with English on them so that they could experience it the same way, if that's the way its "supposed" to be experienced?

- bob

I didn't say english was the way it should be experienced?

It's not about what is on the scroll always. Sometimes it's about the art of the kanji. Trust me, I could hang 50 scrolls with calligraphic kanji on them and line up 100 Japanese guys, and maybe they would read two of them.

Japanese Calligraphy is almost impossible to read even for a Japanese person. There are possibly tens of thousands of hanko on pots that are lost to time because no one can read what they say. No one can read the chops nor the signatures. They are personal and the characters mean nothing to someone not knowing what they read.

It's like autographs. We all have seen very famous autographs in magazines and books and unless someone tells who it was we would have never figured it out based on the writing. It's to obscure.

I am the president of a Japanese club, Akatsuki. My teacher is 75 years old, and very old school Japanese. I have 27 scrolls now. I have showed them to my teacher and my Japanese freinds and have only had one read. The one I posted. "Pine needles in the wind". They can't even read the signatures, which should be readible.
 
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I am the president of a Japanese club, Akatsuki. My teacher is 75 years old, and very old school Japanese. I have 27 scrolls now. I have showed them to my teacher and my Japanese freinds and have only had one read. The one I posted. "Pine needles in the wind". They can't even read the signatures, which should be readible.

That is a very fascinating truth.

V
 
This scroll of Mt Fuji is one of my favorites. It contains a poem across the top. I would love to know what it says. So far not one Japanese person I have showed it to can make out anything it says. They tell me it looks like "Greek". What a sense of humor.
 

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Seriously... that's just crazy... puts a whole new spin on it. I made the incorrect assumption they could read it.... thank you for that bit of info.

V
 
No, I didn't mean that it should be experienced in English, I meant it should be experienced in a language the observer can't read, which you've answered, so point conceded. :)

- bob
 
Japanese Calligraphy is almost impossible to read even for a Japanese person. There are possibly tens of thousands of hanko on pots that are lost to time because no one can read what they say. No one can read the chops nor the signatures. They are personal and the characters mean nothing to someone not knowing what they read.

It's like autographs. We all have seen very famous autographs in magazines and books and unless someone tells who it was we would have never figured it out based on the writing. It's to obscure.



That's pretty ridiculous, don't you think?
 
Japanese Calligraphy is almost impossible to read even for a Japanese person. There are possibly tens of thousands of hanko on pots that are lost to time because no one can read what they say. No one can read the chops nor the signatures. They are personal and the characters mean nothing to someone not knowing what they read.

It's like autographs. We all have seen very famous autographs in magazines and books and unless someone tells who it was we would have never figured it out based on the writing. It's to obscure.



That's pretty ridiculous, don't you think?

Not really i can't read ancient english script can any other english speakers out there:)
 
Not really i can't read ancient english script can any other english speakers out there

:p

Good point.
 
Seriously... that's just crazy... puts a whole new spin on it. I made the incorrect assumption they could read it.... thank you for that bit of info.

V

Fascinating, the realization that we find more interesting the things we have no clue about.

The other day we had a speaker from New York, supposedly talking about hedge funds. We had no idea what she was saying, but she sounded very smart and knowledgeable.
(later she admitted to me that she was just quoting the Old Testament, backwards - that explained why I heard the word Dog, mentioned too many times)
 
I want to add my 2 cents worth to the discussion of script on scrolls and whether or not script in English is less artistic than in kanji.
The image is of a shikishi. The script is a haiku I composed many years ago. The calligraphy is by my old friend, the late Bobbi Burr. I believe that Bobbi's script is artistic and will display as well, and maybe better than one that the average viewer has no clue as to what it says.
I just happened to have it out as I'm planing a display for the Bonsai Society of San Francisco 50th anniversary show on May 22. I will show it with a large Ponderosa Pine rock planting.

Mike

Edit:Image 2 is the Ponderosa I will exhibit. Height from table about 32 inches. In 1986 at the club show, Dan Robinson styled the tree and I assembled the rock to plant it in.
Edit: Image 3 is the Ponderosa around 1989/90
 

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Fascinating, the realization that we find more interesting the things we have no clue about.

The other day we had a speaker from New York, supposedly talking about hedge funds. We had no idea what she was saying, but she sounded very smart and knowledgeable.
(later she admitted to me that she was just quoting the Old Testament, backwards - that explained why I heard the word Dog, mentioned too many times)

What?!?! You are kidding right... I am so gullible... I would believe you... you know that right? :o

V
 
Edit: The image is the Ponderosa I will exhibit. Height from table about 32 inches. In 1986 at the club show, Dan Robinson styled the tree and I assembled the rock to plant it in.

I will have to be sure to show that to Daniel... he would likely enjoy to see it again... he remembers them all you know. It's quiet strange. I enjoyed the Haiku also... :)

I hope you'll take some photos of the display.... :D

Kindest regards,

Victrinia
 
Japanese Calligraphy is almost impossible to read even for a Japanese person. There are possibly tens of thousands of hanko on pots that are lost to time because no one can read what they say. No one can read the chops nor the signatures. They are personal and the characters mean nothing to someone not knowing what they read.

It's like autographs. We all have seen very famous autographs in magazines and books and unless someone tells who it was we would have never figured it out based on the writing. It's to obscure.



That's pretty ridiculous, don't you think?

No actually since I have done the homework I don't think it's ridiculous at all. I suggest you buy a scroll with some kanji on it and then seek a Japanese person to tell you what it says. You will find that I am spot on. In fact heres a couple below for you.

These are written in english. Tell me who they are.
 

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No actually since I have done the homework I don't think it's ridiculous at all. I suggest you buy a scroll with some kanji on it and then seek a Japanese person to tell you what it says. You will find that I am spot on. In fact heres a couple below for you.

These are written in english. Tell me who they are.

Smoke, not that what you said was ridiculous, but the fact that no one knows what they say. refer to #111
 
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