What to do with this trident maple in development?

[rdb00]

I took this trident off a buddy and I’m planning on letting the trunk grow out (doesn’t look the best right now, I think it was an air layer).

The delimma I have is this wild taper at the top. The top branching is almost as thick as the main trunk.

My goal is to thicken the main trunk. I feel like cutting/layering top off will slow progress… is it necessary to keep it on until my main trunk is desired thickness?

 

[Shibui]

It is really hard to give an opinion when I can only see the top branches. Maybe cutting much lower would be a better option than just playing with the top section. Maybe the lower trunk is already great, but if a buddy is 'passing it on' I guess it is not first class bonsai material?
I'd also need to know what your aims are for this trident - basic mallsai or high quality bonsai with taper and nebari?

A thick trunk is a worthy goal but there's a lot more to a bonsai than a thick trunk. Consider nebari, trunk taper, branch placement, trunk bends for a start. I grow a lot of tridents here and have found that sacrificing a little growth in order to grow a more attractive trunk is well worth the extra year or so - and I'm not really sure early chopping does cost years of development.
Free growth to achieve trunk thickness is usually followed by a massive chop. Most newer growers do not allow for the years after the chop while the new leader develops and the chop heals. then there's more years to develop the branches and ramification.
Early chop will usually give some bends to the developing trunk. It certainly gives trunk taper. Subsequent growth helps heal initial chops. A year or 2 after the above tree was chopped you'll have a trunk of similar thickness but with bends and taper and the final scar is much, much smaller and you can move on to branch development sooner than the free growth model.

Lets start building this trident from the roots up.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Guessing nothing in those photos will be part of the actual bonsai. Let’s see the trunk where it touches the ground.

 

[rdb00]

It is really hard to give an opinion when I can only see the top branches. Maybe cutting much lower would be a better option than just playing with the top section. Maybe the lower trunk is already great, but if a buddy is 'passing it on' I guess it is not first class bonsai material?
I'd also need to know what your aims are for this trident - basic mallsai or high quality bonsai with taper and nebari?

A thick trunk is a worthy goal but there's a lot more to a bonsai than a thick trunk. Consider nebari, trunk taper, branch placement, trunk bends for a start. I grow a lot of tridents here and have found that sacrificing a little growth in order to grow a more attractive trunk is well worth the extra year or so - and I'm not really sure early chopping does cost years of development.
Free growth to achieve trunk thickness is usually followed by a massive chop. Most newer growers do not allow for the years after the chop while the new leader develops and the chop heals. then there's more years to develop the branches and ramification.
Early chop will usually give some bends to the developing trunk. It certainly gives trunk taper. Subsequent growth helps heal initial chops. A year or 2 after the above tree was chopped you'll have a trunk of similar thickness but with bends and taper and the final scar is much, much smaller and you can move on to branch development sooner than the free growth model.

Lets start building this trident from the roots up.

This is my fault, I should have Been more specific on my plan for this tree.

1st I am looking for a little more trunk girth and as such, my initial plan was to place in ground this upcoming season to begin this. I plan to do quite a bit of root work as it is currently circling the nursery pot it is in. When I place in ground I planned on placing it on a tile or similar to see if this may help develop the roots or not.

I personally am a fan of formal upright style, which is my end goal for this tree many years from now.

My original question was in regards to whether chopping off the top half of that tree that currently has quite a lot of leaf surface area would be a terrible idea (design aside) from adding girth to the trunk.

The top half of the tree was left on, so far, to provide more surface area for light to be taken in etc. (please correct me if I am wrong here in this assumption)

I am going to post pictures of the trunk and roots as requested when I get home. Thanks so much

 

[Wulfskaar]

It sounds like you're on the right track. I've asked the same questions a few times. All that growth will help fatten the trunk faster. Then, when the trunk is as thick as you want, you would do the major chopping.

 

[rdb00]

Guessing nothing in those photos will be part of the actual bonsai. Let’s see the trunk where it touches the ground.

Yes, apologies. I am going to post more photos of current state of tree

 

[rdb00]

It sounds like you're on the right track. I've asked the same questions a few times. All that growth will help fatten the trunk faster. Then, when the trunk is as thick as you want, you would do the major chopping.

Thank you, I am going to post a couple more photos shortly. Certainly has a lot of work needed but I’m excited.

I love tridents

 

[darzuo]

Generally I'd say if you're trying to thicken, keep any growth that is not shading out growth branches that you plan on using. So if you're going to chop it down to a stub in the future, go ahead and keep everything.

 

[rdb00]

Guessing nothing in those photos will be part of the actual bonsai. Let’s see the trunk where it touches the ground.

Here are pics of the trunk in its current pot

 

[Adamski77]

Couple of obvious problems with this trunk is shape (simply straight) and taper (doesn't have any based on pictures)... there is also a problem with root structure but this can be addressed. Not to discourage you but do you want to invest your time in this instead of finding a better material.
The only option to progress with this particular tree is to chop it in spring quite low and get it to put some new shoots out of which you'll develop new leader so the tree will ultimately have some taper.

 

[rdb00]

Couple of obvious problems with this trunk is shape (simply straight) and taper (doesn't have any based on pictures)... there is also a problem with root structure but this can be addressed. Not to discourage you but do you want to invest your time in this instead of finding a better material.
The only option to progress with this particular tree is to chop it in spring quite low and get it to put some new shoots out of which you'll develop new leader so the tree will ultimately have some taper.

Yeah I hear what you are saying. I actually have some tridents that are in training stage that I paid $$$ for. This one was given to me and frankly I just thought it would be fun to develop something rather than just pay for another tree that was ready to be trained.

The roots are definitely a mess and the trunk is absolutely straight, you are correct.

I guess in my mind, I sort of just figured sticking this in my yard for some time to thicken it up after performing some root work would get me started off and then addressing the taper in a few years (would like a formal or informal upright)

I don’t mind if there is little movement, just thought it would be fun to develop something for once. Different process and different challenge!

 

[Adamski77]

not a bad idea... I would put it in the ground... slant it a little bit (based on what I see root structure supports the idea) and chop it low. If you slip pot in the ground you could do both operations in one spring. They are tough.

 

[rdb00]

not a bad idea... I would put it in the ground... slant it a little bit (based on what I see root structure supports the idea) and chop it low. If you slip pot in the ground you could do both operations in one spring. They are tough.

I was actually planning on reducing the root mass from the current nursery can it is in…. Think that would be too much in one go? Root mass reduction followed by placing in a grow bag in the ground? Maybe the root work in like Jan-feb 2026 and put in ground when buds start to swell in Mar 2026 (I’m in zone 7)? I’m using grow bags because I have other trees I’m thickening in them and it makes performing root work so much easier than digging when I need to

 

[The Barber]

Didn't read through the replies, so forgive me if I echo other responses. The thickness of the top doesnt matter, the base does at this point in development. Ultimately, the desired thickness will vary from tree to tree based on your goals. Do you want it to be a large tree, shohin, etc should be one of your initial questions to yourself. If it were mine, I would cover the roots with soil first and foremost. Exposed nebari don't develop as well as a buried one, it won't send out any new roots in the exposed areas. I wouldn't do anything till spring. Let it strengthen, and keep it fertilized, the healthier it is, the more growth it will reward you with. Every couple years you'll want to work the roots. One way people have a lot of success with tridents when building a nice nebari is to get a circular piece of thinner wood, use small nails or tacks to guide the roots into a more radial position. Don't drive the pins through the roots though, place them beside the roots to keep them aligned. The board will force the roots near the tree to remain shallow, and the more dense the roots become near the base of the tree, the more they will fuse. A bit of searching and you should be able to find some good info on this method.

Here is my understanding of why trees grow without taper in most cases, the reason in most cases we have to chop and regrow a new leader multiple times to build taper.

Any growth will cause thickening. The more tree, the more foliage, the more vascular tissue it requires. An elongating branch will thicken the entire area between it, and the roots, but not above the branch.

Example 1, forest trees generally abandon all lower branches and grow a canopy because of the competition for sunlight in a forest. This leaves all of the branches at the top, all adding thickness below the branches, creating a consistent trunk thickness all the way down the tree. Same as your tree, with all of the branches high on the trunk. The taper will begin at the lowest branch, and taper to the leader. This is also the reason many times air layers make better trees, taking the top where most of the branches were located gives better taper.(Pardon the crappy illustration)

Example 2, dwarfed trees, shrubs, bushes, etc have a growth habit generally desireable for bonsai because they aren't as predisposed to abandon their low branches. Assuming any tree has a consistent distribution of branches starting low on the tree, the taper should be consistent as well. Looking at a tree, the taper will begin at the first branch.

This is obviously a simplification. This also shows why we use sacrifice branches on our bonsai to correct taper issues. Also, one way to really see how thickening branches add girth to the trunk, look at a tree that has a slingshot V. Generally the thickness of the trunk below the V will be close to the combined thickness of the two top branches of the V. This is the reason we want junctions of 2, it gives a more desireable taper.

The more you allow all of the branches to elongate and thicken, the more your tree will thicken. Trident maples want to be the forest tree and will drop shaded branches. Before the spring push, you can remove all of the branches to a nub, leaving the leader alone and it should push branches all over the place, wire them to where they won't be shaded and they should put out better growth.

Hope this helps.

 

[rdb00]

Didn't read through the replies, so forgive me if I echo other responses. The thickness of the top doesnt matter, the base does at this point in development. Ultimately, the desired thickness will vary from tree to tree based on your goals. Do you want it to be a large tree, shohin, etc should be one of your initial questions to yourself. If it were mine, I would cover the roots with soil first and foremost. Exposed nebari don't develop as well as a buried one, it won't send out any new roots in the exposed areas. I wouldn't do anything till spring. Let it strengthen, and keep it fertilized, the healthier it is, the more growth it will reward you with. Every couple years you'll want to work the roots. One way people have a lot of success with tridents when building a nice nebari is to get a circular piece of thinner wood, use small nails or tacks to guide the roots into a more radial position. Don't drive the pins through the roots though, place them beside the roots to keep them aligned. The board will force the roots near the tree to remain shallow, and the more dense the roots become near the base of the tree, the more they will fuse. A bit of searching and you should be able to find some good info on this method.

Here is my understanding of why trees grow without taper in most cases, the reason in most cases we have to chop and regrow a new leader multiple times to build taper.

Any growth will cause thickening. The more tree, the more foliage, the more vascular tissue it requires. An elongating branch will thicken the entire area between it, and the roots, but not above the branch.

Example 1, forest trees generally abandon all lower branches and grow a canopy because of the competition for sunlight in a forest. This leaves all of the branches at the top, all adding thickness below the branches, creating a consistent trunk thickness all the way down the tree. Same as your tree, with all of the branches high on the trunk. The taper will begin at the lowest branch, and taper to the leader. This is also the reason many times air layers make better trees, taking the top where most of the branches were located gives better taper.(Pardon the crappy illustration)
View attachment 610217
Example 2, dwarfed trees, shrubs, bushes, etc have a growth habit generally desireable for bonsai because they aren't as predisposed to abandon their low branches. Assuming any tree has a consistent distribution of branches starting low on the tree, the taper should be consistent as well. Looking at a tree, the taper will begin at the first branch.
View attachment 610210
This is obviously a simplification. This also shows why we use sacrifice branches on our bonsai to correct taper issues. Also, one way to really see how thickening branches add girth to the trunk, look at a tree that has a slingshot V. Generally the thickness of the trunk below the V will be close to the combined thickness of the two top branches of the V. This is the reason we want junctions of 2, it gives a more desireable taper.

The more you allow all of the branches to elongate and thicken, the more your tree will thicken. Trident maples want to be the forest tree and will drop shaded branches. Before the spring push, you can remove all of the branches to a nub, leaving the leader alone and it should push branches all over the place, wire them to where they won't be shaded and they should put out better growth.

Hope this helps.

Man, thank you so much for taking time to type all of this out. I know that probably took a long time to reply with all of this. All of this information was really helpful and I really appreciate it.

 

[The Barber]

Man, thank you so much for taking time to type all of this out. I know that probably took a long time to reply with all of this. All of this information was really helpful and I really appreciate it.

It did take a few, but if it helped you or anyone else, then it was totally worth it.

 

[Shibui]

My original question was in regards to whether chopping off the top half of that tree that currently has quite a lot of leaf surface area would be a terrible idea (design aside) from adding girth to the trunk.

In very basic terms, the more leaves and branches you have the faster the tree will thicken.
BUT, as mentioned earlier, a thick stump does not always make a great bonsai. Taper is important. Lack of scars is important. New apex looking natural is important.
You may be able to grow a thick trunk in a few years but after the chop it will take 5-10 years for the new branches to grow to match the lower trunk and for the big scar to heal - if it ever does.
By cutting sooner I'm able to add some taper to the trunk. The smaller scars usually heal quicker, especially with added growth from a second grow period. Even if it takes an extra year or 2 to reach trunk size, the following apex and branch development time will reduce by more than half meaning an ultimate saving in time to produce your final bonsai.
I'll leave it up to you to decide which way to go.

I personally am a fan of formal upright style, which is my end goal for this tree many years from now.

No problem aiming for a formal upright tree. There's a couple of upright styles. Intact leader - trunk goes all the way to the top, branches horizontal - is usually used for conifers. I suspect you'll have some problems developing this trident as intact leader, especially if you plan bulk growth and big chop.
Broom is more often the formal upright for deciduous and is easier to achieve after a big chop.

my initial plan was to place in ground this upcoming season to begin this. I plan to do quite a bit of root work as it is currently circling the nursery pot it is in. When I place in ground I planned on placing it on a tile or similar to see if this may help develop the roots or not.

Ground grow will definitely give best thickening but also least control.
Definitely do extensive root work before planting in the ground. The only thing worse than tangles roots on a bonsai is thick tangled roots on a bonsai.
I note that you want to trial the tile under roots. I always encourage testing theories. If you do the root work properly the tile will be redundant. Tridents prefer to grow lateral surface roots so they don't seem to grow many down roots after the initial root prune. Just don't plant the roots too deep. Tridents are prone to throw new roots from the buried trunk. Sometimes that's good because, if we get a good batch of new roots, we just chop off the old root system but, if you just get a few new roots above the old root system, they will thicken the trunk and give you inverse taper down there.
Again, I'll leave it to you to decide whether to use the tile.

I was actually planning on reducing the root mass from the current nursery can it is in…. Think that would be too much in one go?

Tridents are very resilient. I usually chop all lateral roots to around 1 trunk diameter long and remove all down roots completely. They just power away come Spring. No problem reducing roots and trunk in one operation.

 

[rdb00]

In very basic terms, the more leaves and branches you have the faster the tree will thicken.
BUT, as mentioned earlier, a thick stump does not always make a great bonsai. Taper is important. Lack of scars is important. New apex looking natural is important.
You may be able to grow a thick trunk in a few years but after the chop it will take 5-10 years for the new branches to grow to match the lower trunk and for the big scar to heal - if it ever does.
By cutting sooner I'm able to add some taper to the trunk. The smaller scars usually heal quicker, especially with added growth from a second grow period. Even if it takes an extra year or 2 to reach trunk size, the following apex and branch development time will reduce by more than half meaning an ultimate saving in time to produce your final bonsai.
I'll leave it up to you to decide which way to go.


No problem aiming for a formal upright tree. There's a couple of upright styles. Intact leader - trunk goes all the way to the top, branches horizontal - is usually used for conifers. I suspect you'll have some problems developing this trident as intact leader, especially if you plan bulk growth and big chop.
Broom is more often the formal upright for deciduous and is easier to achieve after a big chop.


Ground grow will definitely give best thickening but also least control.
Definitely do extensive root work before planting in the ground. The only thing worse than tangles roots on a bonsai is thick tangled roots on a bonsai.
I note that you want to trial the tile under roots. I always encourage testing theories. If you do the root work properly the tile will be redundant. Tridents prefer to grow lateral surface roots so they don't seem to grow many down roots after the initial root prune. Just don't plant the roots too deep. Tridents are prone to throw new roots from the buried trunk. Sometimes that's good because, if we get a good batch of new roots, we just chop off the old root system but, if you just get a few new roots above the old root system, they will thicken the trunk and give you inverse taper down there.
Again, I'll leave it to you to decide whether to use the tile.


Tridents are very resilient. I usually chop all lateral roots to around 1 trunk diameter long and remove all down roots completely. They just power away come Spring. No problem reducing roots and trunk in one operation.

All of this was extremely insightful for this new project. Thank you for taking the time to provide me with all of this useful info!