When or not when to chop up a nursery juniper?

[choppychoppy]

So I started a lively discussion at my club the other day about nursery junipers. I have lots and lots of them and most of them I have treated pretty rough in the beginning. I am always trying to really put some science into the things people tell me and I read etc. especially when there is a way to test it. I hate 'Hearsay from old men' as I have found a lot of Bonsai info to be. SO ANYWAY - Junipers. I had a couple of raw 3 gallon junis at the club meeting and I was saying I was going to chop the heck out of the tops and bottoms, start some rough jins and cram em into pots and give em an initial styling. This set off a whole wave of comments.

I shouldnt beat on a juni this hard.
I should only do it at a certain time of year.
I should only do the top and not the roots.

It was quite lively - so I was wondering...Since a lot of folks are looking to use cheaper and readily available stuff I had a group of junis sent to me from my landscaper friend, and I was going to do one every month this year and see what happens - I mean these were $10 - they are a mix of parsonii and procumens. I wanted to ask the folks out there.

Would you treat a juni this rough right away?
Would you - but only do it at a certain time of year?
When would be the absolute WORST time of year to do this?
Do you have any that you have done this to?

Here are a few pictures -


I have been doing them since Feb. The middle pic - the tree was done in Feb. The first pic - tree was done in March and the last pic tree was done in April. All about the third week.

Let me know what the absolute worst day of the year you think would be to do one - if I get a consensus I will def do one on that day. I was thinking July 4th? Haha.

Thanks.

 

[Adair M]

Well...

I wouldn't do drastic styling and root ball reduction all at the same time. One or the other.

The time to create Jin and Shsri is summer. Lots of fluid in the branches, so it's easy to peel the bark and cambium off. During the winter, the tree takes all the water out. It's hard to peel the cambium off! So, that's the best time to wire.

The time to do root work is late winter to early spring.

I wouldn't use a blue or any glazed pot on a juniper, ever.

 

[sorce]

I hope we still have a good honest rivalry going Choppy2.

Man.....

F Junipers!

I just kill them over and over..
I was gonna do one a week.....
But sho not procumbins!

I understand the science....
Wanting it....
But there are simply way too many variables to make heads or tails of it.

All I know....

It's a good idea to style one a month.

Find it out....cuz people do one thing and swear by it....but they could all be flukes!

Mike Frary said he hits em hard all at once.....
I just did it to a sargenti.

I'm starting to think all at once is better....

But I'm sooooooooo close to come with Junipers.....

Sorce

 

[M. Frary]

Way back when when I very first started bonsai the first time I would buy procumbens,wash the roots,cut them back and put them in a pot all on the same day. This was in early summer. They took it just fine. I didn't know any better at the time. So I still do it. It's kind of like Vance doing Mugo and Scots pines at that time. Only thing is he doesn't bareroot those.

 

[choppychoppy]

Adair

Thanks for the comments

I wouldn't do drastic styling and root ball reduction all at the same time. One or the other

This I assume is strictly health related.

The time to create Jin and Shsri is summer. Lots of fluid in the branches, so it's easy to peel the bark and cambium off. During the winter, the tree takes all the water out. It's hard to peel the cambium off! So, that's the best time to wire.

I havent noticed any real difference in the last few months removing bark so far but I will def keep an eye out for changes as I do the ones in the summer and winter months.

The time to do root work is late winter to early spring.

Again I assume this is overall heath related.

I wouldn't use a blue or any glazed pot on a juniper, ever.

These are just whatever I have around at the time and since they are all essentially experiments they can be moved into more appropriate pots if they survive well.

Thanks again

 

[Handsome John]

I abuse my Junipers and work them really hard, an older member of my club told me to do all the heavy cutting and drastic root prunes when you first get nursery stock and trying to help it recover instead of trying to refine it for a decade and accidentally kill it trying to fit into a pot, so far its worked for me but it depends how much you wanna take a chance haha i would listen to the others they've been at this longer than i have

 

[thomas22]

I think drastic foliage pruning and root pruning at the same time is not only dangerous but will also slow the process of getting a decent bonsai. This is what I have done in the past and is currently my goal for a few junipers. I bought a couple of 5 gal junipers in winter and after a few week of studying the tree and figuring out where I wanted to go with I cut off all the foliage I was not going to use in the final design. I will feed the tree regularly and keep in the nursery pot during spring and early summer. Do not repot or you will lose the a ton of growth the first growing season. Keep the branches you need the most growth facing the sun and by mid summer you should have enough growth be able to wire. You can then repot the following spring. This to me is the best case scenario. You will not always be able to go this fast to bonsai pot. If the tree needs a lot more growth you may need want to leave in the nursery pot for another year. Repotting when you first buy a tree doesn't make since to me unless this is purely for practice on cheap material which in that case I would understand.

 

[Handsome John]

all in the name of experimentation!

 

[choppychoppy]

May and June subjects

 

[Jester217300]

@choppychoppy I didn't see this thread before. I largely agree with you. Junipers have become my favorite species in recent months because of how easy they are. They take drastic reduction well, both top and bottom, throughout the year. I've bare rooted them and done all other types of nonsense and have literally never killed one.

Here's one I did this spring. I didn't style it because I plan to graft. But it is overworked based on what many people in the bonsai community suggest. It's now pushing new growth and looking just fine.

http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/chunky-san-jose.23119/

 

[Adair M]

Adair

Thanks for the comments


This I assume is strictly health related.


I havent noticed any real difference in the last few months removing bark so far but I will def keep an eye out for changes as I do the ones in the summer and winter months.


Again I assume this is overall heath related.


These are just whatever I have around at the time and since they are all essentially experiments they can be moved into more appropriate pots if they survive well.

Thanks again

You have to get the tree healthy first. If you have a healthy then you can prune, wire, style. If the tree is weak, then there is a chance of losing the tree.

It doesn't matter how beatifully it's styled if it's dead.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I'm a Grumpy Old Fart, so it won't matter what I say.

First off, if you want a ''real science'' experiment, you need replicates. Minimum of 3, per treatment. An ''experiment'' with only single observations is no better than ''ancedote''. If you want science, set the experiment up right. Define the variables, and measurements that will indicate the traits you are looking for and define a way to score the observations. Define what consititutes success, and failure, before the experiment starts. What environmental factors are being controlled, what are the environmental factors not being controled? Otherwise, it is no more valid than what this, or that grumpy old man says. ''In the absence of quantifyable data, ancedote will have to do''.

One thing I noticed, you list Southeastern USA as your location. I'm in the northern Midwest, my frost free growing season is right around 95 to 105 days. Alabama may have a 200 day growing season. California will vary depending on where you are. Junipers will respond to pruning and repotting differently based on local climate. In parts of California you can get away with routinely doing things that I could never do at the IL-WI border.

So even if you figured out you could do this, that and the other while growing in the southeast, it will still say nothing about what a grower in Maine or Minnisota could get away with. You then need to replicate the experiment in different regions of the USA.

This is why anecdote is so pervasive in the hobby, its expensive and time consuming toset up ''real experiments''.

In my 100 day growing season, you work top, leave 12 moths for recovery, work the roots, leave 12 to 24 months for recovery. Rush a junpier and risk death. More so than pines, occassionally you can ''get away with it'' if your aftercare is near ideal. It is a crap shoot working both top and bottom on the same day.

 

[choppychoppy]

I'm a Grumpy Old Fart, so it won't matter what I say.

First off, if you want a ''real science'' experiment, you need replicates. Minimum of 3, per treatment. An ''experiment'' with only single observations is no better than ''ancedote''. If you want science, set the experiment up right. Define the variables, and measurements that will indicate the traits you are looking for and define a way to score the observations. Define what consititutes success, and failure, before the experiment starts. What environmental factors are being controlled, what are the environmental factors not being controled? Otherwise, it is no more valid than what this, or that grumpy old man says. ''In the absence of quantifyable data, ancedote will have to do''.

One thing I noticed, you list Southeastern USA as your location. I'm in the northern Midwest, my frost free growing season is right around 95 to 105 days. Alabama may have a 200 day growing season. California will vary depending on where you are. Junipers will respond to pruning and repotting differently based on local climate. In parts of California you can get away with routinely doing things that I could never do at the IL-WI border.

So even if you figured out you could do this, that and the other while growing in the southeast, it will still say nothing about what a grower in Maine or Minnisota could get away with. You then need to replicate the experiment in different regions of the USA.

This is why anecdote is so pervasive in the hobby, its expensive and time consuming toset up ''real experiments''.

In my 100 day growing season, you work top, leave 12 moths for recovery, work the roots, leave 12 to 24 months for recovery. Rush a junpier and risk death. More so than pines, occassionally you can ''get away with it'' if your aftercare is near ideal. It is a crap shoot working both top and bottom on the same day.

I am doing several each month
I'm not interested in Maine Minnesota or California since I don't live there
I'm not trying to publish a 'science experiment' I am only curious about working a tree in all months in my area
I have over 100 junipers and I have worked them all very hard with almost no losses and have found them one of the hardiest trees of anything I have - for me there is no 'crapshoot' - I've worked the top and bottom of a new nursery juniper the same day many many times

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

(snip)......... I am always trying to really put some science into the things people tell me and I read etc. especially when there is a way to test it. I hate 'Hearsay from old men' as I have found a lot of Bonsai info to be............... readily available stuff I had a group of junis sent to me from my landscaper friend, and I was going to do one every month this year and see what happens .........(snip)

Mainly was dogging you for dismissing ''hearsay from old men'', as I am an old man. I for one, also believe it is possible to extract good information out of anecdote, which is different from accepting all anectdote as being good information. Carry on, as long as you know you are just adding to the pile of hearsay anecdotes. I will read and see if I can extract useful information.