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Speaking of a co-founder of two bonsai forums, I appreciate what Brent has said on the first page very much. He has professionally critiqued the major bonsai forums that are in existence now, giving both the strengths and weaknesses of the same. This sort of input is more valuable than many realize, it is rare, and it can only serve to improve the forums if they choose to listen.

I am a firm believer that no one forum can be all things to all people, to try and focus on all things tends to dilute the whole.

When AoB was first in development we made a decision to leave the culivational aspects of bonsai to other forums and to focus on the art aspect only, something that has never been done before. Strangely AoB became very successful with the very advanced artists and wildly hated by the not so advanced. Another thing is that AoB was designed to be more of a magazine or a "on-line coffee table book" than a discussion forum, although the means for discussion are there, it is not promoted. AoB has found a niche which is galleries of the some of the greatest bonsai, interviews of great artists and influential people in bonsai (have you seen Brent's?), and articles dealing with art and design theory as it applies to bonsai.

Later, with KoB, we worked toward a knowledge base of quality information for the serious bonsaist, focusing on cultivation, it was decidedly not a "happy birthday" forum nor a one stop shopping forum where you could buy/sell, auction, get a date, chat, rent a car, and get a college degree while you enjoy a makeover.

This being said, I think a forum like this would be more successful by focusing a little. Leave the buying and selling to Ebay but keep the beginner to advanced crowd active. We were all beginners once and there were always a few willing to answer our questions, even though they had answered them a zillion times before we came along. However, advice given should be open to debate and differing opinions should be allowed to be expressed. Information given should be "certifiable" however by results, sources, or references. If someone tell me that I should water my Pines with Goats milk, I want to see results, sources, or references!

In order to better serve beginners, you need advanced members and also content that will keep them coming back. Besides a few noted artists like Walter, Jerry, and experienced growers like Brent, there are not many advanced bonsaists that play Robin Hood and bounce from forum to forum just looking to help someone. Give them a reason to be here and they will participate.

I also think that moderators should moderate seldom and moderate wisely when they need to. On too many forums the moderators confuse authority with knowledge, suddenly becoming bonsai masters overnight. When corrected on advice given, they tend to abuse the authority slightly. Moderation need not be difficult, at AoB where the subject matter is "art" (debated hotly elsewhere) we have never had to ban a single person in two years, in fact we do not have moderators at all. (No debates? See the "Future of Bonsai" thread.) I believe we have deleted about a dozen posts in that time, all but two were spam.

I think you have a good forum underway here and it will grow if you remain open and focused on what it is, a bonsai forum. There is plenty of room for more than one forum, I visit a few myself everyday. Forums need not battle each other and as GardenWeb taught us, you can't lock your members in.


My two cents worth,


Will Heath
 
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Nigel Black

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Brent raised all of the issues I would have brought up. I'd like to see a forum
that managed to avoid repetition in posts\threads. Also, as Brent mentioned -
how do we keep threads from getting mired down in pointless off-topic or barely on topic
wandering responses. Yeah, discussion of soils, tools, and a hundreds I've forgotten at the moment.

I joined this forum because it WAS new and I hoped there would be an opportunity to shape this
forum into something useful to more than just beginners.

Nigel
 

Tachigi

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how do we keep threads from getting mired down in pointless off-topic or barely on topic
wandering responses

Shock Collars

Is this starting to smell of stuffiness and elitism? If your going to have forums your going to have people searching out answers. The questions aren't always the ones you want to hear. So unless its invitation only then the burden of those questions will have to be born. It is the members that drive the forum, so drive the new ones in the right direction and minimize what you loath.
 
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Vance Wood

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Brent raised all of the issues I would have brought up. I'd like to see a forum
that managed to avoid repetition in posts\threads. Also, as Brent mentioned -
how do we keep threads from getting mired down in pointless off-topic or barely on topic
wandering responses. Yeah, discussion of soils, tools, and a hundreds I've forgotten at the moment.

I joined this forum because it WAS new and I hoped there would be an opportunity to shape this
forum into something useful to more than just beginners.

Nigel

I don't know how you can avoid redundancy. If that concept were carried literally after about six months you would have to shut the site down because everything had been discussed. I know that's absurd but I hope you see my point. You are always going to have new discussions about old subjects. The problem arises when someone who has been on the forum for a while comes on line and complains that we have been here before. To me that's kind of a no brainer, if the discussion is of no interest don't participate, but don't complain if others do. The forums are like TV, if you don't like what is on change the station.


I hope to see things develop differently here than in several other places I could name. I first started my Internet bonsai interest at Garden Web over ten years ago. I still visit there from time to time but they seem to have chased off the most active and knowledgeable members by making choices to add annoying pop up ads and the like. A couple of other sites that sprung up from that corner stone have allowed cliques, with gestapo like mentalities, to run them--- and badly at times. Some of these sites have become little elite clubs that welcome only the beginners and tolerate dissent from more experienced growers poorly. If you are not one of "The Gang" you are likely to be ignored or put down, especially if you disagree with one of the select few.

I don't know whether this tendency can be avoided but I certainly hope so, or this site too will degrade into the abyss of mediocrity a Gang mentality can foster. I subscribe to the idea that if you cannot defend your ideas or points of view with logic, reason and facts then there is something wrong with your ideas or points of view. Personal attacks and campaigns of personal destruction are not acceptable substitutes. Sadly this is the way a lot of discussions seem to evolve. Remember you cannot argue with a CD or a book, you can only accept or reject. On a site like this you can debate what is being said, and decide whether or not what you are reading is worth taking to heart or deleting. The other side of that coin is the fact if you say it you should be able to defend it. Some think that just because they said something and because it is "they" who are saying it there is no room to be questioned on it.

End of Rant?
 

Nigel Black

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More good points. The thing I'm shooting for is to make information readily available.
I'd hate to encourage elitism or cause anyone to feel unwelcome. Yet must threads
become so bogged down that they become almost unsearchable. Apparently so. What might be a 'middle way' here? Perhaps a 'standards and practices' email that one gets automatically upon signing up? I confess I don't know and that I suspect there is no solution.

Nigel
 

BonsaiWes

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Speaking of a co-founder of two bonsai forums, I appreciate what Brent has said on the first page very much. He has professionally critiqued the major bonsai forums that are in existence now, giving both the strengths and weaknesses of the same. This sort of input is more valuable than many realize, it is rare, and it can only serve to improve the forums if they choose to listen.

I am a firm believer that no one forum can be all things to all people, to try and focus on all things tends to dilute the whole.

When AoB was first in development we made a decision to leave the culivational aspects of bonsai to other forums and to focus on the art aspect only, something that has never been done before. Strangely AoB became very successful with the very advanced artists and wildly hated by the not so advanced. Another thing is that AoB was designed to be more of a magazine or a "on-line coffee table book" than a discussion forum, although the means for discussion are there, it is not promoted. AoB has found a niche which is galleries of the some of the greatest bonsai, interviews of great artists and influential people in bonsai (have you seen Brent's?), and articles dealing with art and design theory as it applies to bonsai.

Later, with KoB, we worked toward a knowledge base of quality information for the serious bonsaist, focusing on cultivation, it was decidedly not a "happy birthday" forum nor a one stop shopping forum where you could buy/sell, auction, get a date, chat, rent a car, and get a college degree while you enjoy a makeover.

This being said, I think a forum like this would be more successful by focusing a little. Leave the buying and selling to Ebay but keep the beginner to advanced crowd active. We were all beginners once and there were always a few willing to answer our questions, even though they had answered them a zillion times before we came along. However, advice given should be open to debate and differing opinions should be allowed to be expressed. Information given should be "certifiable" however by results, sources, or references. If someone tell me that I should water my Pines with Goats milk, I want to see results, sources, or references!

In order to better serve beginners, you need advanced members and also content that will keep them coming back. Besides a few noted artists like Walter, Jerry, and experienced growers like Brent, there are not many advanced bonsaists that play Robin Hood and bounce from forum to forum just looking to help someone. Give them a reason to be here and they will participate.

I also think that moderators should moderate seldom and moderate wisely when they need to. On too many forums the moderators confuse authority with knowledge, suddenly becoming bonsai masters overnight. When corrected on advice given, they tend to abuse the authority slightly. Moderation need not be difficult, at AoB where the subject matter is "art" (debated hotly elsewhere) we have never had to ban a single person in two years, in fact we do not have moderators at all. (No debates? See the "Future of Bonsai" thread.) I believe we have deleted about a dozen posts in that time, all but two were spam.

I think you have a good forum underway here and it will grow if you remain open and focused on what it is, a bonsai forum. There is plenty of room for more than one forum, I visit a few myself everyday. Forums need not battle each other and as GardenWeb taught us, you can't lock your members in.


My two cents worth,


Will Heath



EDIT - As much as I hate editing posts I will do so when I need to. This is a new forum and I prefer to judge members based on their behavior HERE versus anyplace else. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.
 
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I would venture to say that this is a good example of the sort of problems that were being discussed above.

Off topic, attacking without provocation, mean spirited, and insulting. Adds nothing to the conversation and is designed to incite, in a word, useless.


Will Heath
 
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BonsaiWes

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EDIT. I'd prefer you just discuss bonsai.
 

Tachigi

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You two seem to have some history. Take it out in the hall, or don't dignify with a response.
 
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I would venture to say that this is a good example of the sort of problems that were being discussed above.

Off topic, attacking without provocation, mean spirited, and insulting. Adds nothing to the conversation and is designed to incite, in a word, useless.


Will Heath

This was a great thread with many good intentions and a bright future for the forum was protrayed.
 

grog

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I can only speak for myself of course but I can say what is different here than at other forums from my perspective. Basically the difference is that if something is posted here it's generally worth reading. A night and day difference. I haven't been at this very long. Okay I've been at this for like 5 minutes compared to most of the other members here. However even though I'm super noob(maybe that should be supernoob, or better yet Supernoob!) I still find myself skipping the vast majority of posts on most forums from the titles "my serissa/fukien tea is dying should I take it off the heater vent, my indoor juniper is crispy and brown can I save it?, my first bonsai an eastern white pine", etc, etc, ad nauseam. My favorite example of how something like that was dealt with effectively was a post here. Someone posted a question along the lines of "anyone know anything about crabapples". Brent replied with a link to his website which two minutes of using a search engine would have produced. Actually to be fair I just googled "crabapple bonsai" and it took a lot less than two minutes to find it, his article at evergreengardenworks was the second link found. Having a userbase that will actually do a bit of research on a subject rather than posting an easily answered, oft repeated question is a huge bonus and I believe something that is being encouraged and developed here.

My 2 cents.. before taxes.
 

BonsaiWes

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I can only speak for myself of course but I can say what is different here than at other forums from my perspective. Basically the difference is that if something is posted here it's generally worth reading. A night and day difference. I haven't been at this very long. Okay I've been at this for like 5 minutes compared to most of the other members here. However even though I'm super noob(maybe that should be supernoob, or better yet Supernoob!) I still find myself skipping the vast majority of posts on most forums from the titles "my serissa/fukien tea is dying should I take it off the heater vent, my indoor juniper is crispy and brown can I save it?, my first bonsai an eastern white pine", etc, etc, ad nauseam.

With only 131 current members and only about 10 of them being regular posters and the main half of those 10 being fairly low skilled I think it is to early to form an opinion of this forum yet.
 

agraham

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"about 10 of them being regular posters and the main half of those 10 being fairly low skilled I think it is to early to form an opinion of this forum yet."

I resent that.This can be a great forum and the posters in here seem to be very knowledgeable and skilled to me.

andy
 

Vance Wood

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Wow Wes with compliments like that who need criticism? As for myself I'll stand any of my trees up against any of yours, even the ones you have bought any time. That really was an uncalled for comment my friend and beneath you.
 
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I think all that Wes meant was that it is to early to judge if this will be a "help my mallsai" kind of forum. There's no need to get all riled up...
 

Tachigi

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Wes, your a charmer my friend. Just out of friendly curiosity what is your definition of skilled and low skilled so I know my place in the pecking order ;)

This is a great forum with all 131. It is friendly, unmoderated, and information is can be obtained quickly. I wonder how many other forums of this type or any other could make that claim at this point in their evolution.
 

Vance Wood

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I think all that Wes meant was that it is to early to judge if this will be a "help my mallsai" kind of forum. There's no need to get all riled up...

I'm not riled up, but Wes said what Wes said. I come from the Rooster Cogburn school of social graces where according to him no one likes being called low down and foul smelling. My problem is that if Wes thinks this is such a useless place to frequent why does he?
 
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I'm not riled up, but Wes said what Wes said. I come from the Rooster Cogburn school of social graces where according to him no one likes being called low down and foul smelling. My problem is that if Wes thinks this is such a useless place to frequent why does he?

Oh dear, what's the use...
 
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