Fairly new to bonsai but been growing orchids for 35 years, 100% agree. There are too many variables for one soil fits all.
Besides that interesting discussion.
Why organic soil?
- Thread starter Salvarez
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Fairly new to bonsai but been growing orchids for 35 years, 100% agree. There are too many variables for one soil fits all.
Besides that interesting discussion.
Maiden69
Masterpiece
Set it on a flat and let it dry in the sun for a few days. Roots will dry up, then fill a 5 gal (or whatever size you may need) container half way with water and add the soil slowly... the particles will fall to the bottom and the roots will float. Remove roots and continue till you are done. After that I use my Joshua Roth watering wand (when used with the water fully open that stream is extremely fine and strong) I rinse the soil on top of a strainer.
Sometimes I don't even rinse it and just use it immediately, or let it dry again and store. This only work with the hard particles, not with akadama, kyriu. or kanuma as the pressure from the water will break them down to mush.
Do folks agree with the following - all things being equal (i.e. assume that all soil components costs the same and that you have a full time staff to water your trees), inorganic soil is ideal? What I am gleaning (perhaps incorrectly) is that organics are being used to reduce watering needs and because it's simply cheaper than standard bonsai soil. Stated differently, if we take out the variables of cost and needing to potentially water multiple times a day, which substrate produces better results?
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
results are always hard to gauge with these topics, majority of people commenting rarely even show their trees. at the end of the day, trees will grow well in a multitude of soils or soil combinations just like they have done for 1000s of years. and yes you environment and micro climate should determine what you choose to use. its never one size fits all. that simple really.
Maiden69
Masterpiece
Out of the mayor bonsai shows, how many of the winning trees are in, or have organic substrate? Here is my take on this, if all things were equal, and given that organic material is way cheaper than inorganic... why don't you see it? If you could get the same ramification out of pine bark, or other organic component why is it that Jonas, Ryan, Bjorn, Sergio, Boon to name a few don't use it on their refinement and show ready trees?
Organics are great for development, but like Walter said, you have to master the watering needs on organic, while unless the tree is rootbound you can water to your hearts content and the excess water just flow out of the pot. Ryan is a big proponent for 100% akadama, and he suggests a 70% organic to 30% pumice or similar for growing out trees in development.
In the end, use what you like the most. I am in Texas, so I could benefit from using organics to minimize my watering... but I learned that in the end, its easier to clean up a root ball that has been established in inorganic soil than to clean up a mess of pine bark and peat moss from a nursery tree. Remember that the same as akadama, roots penetrate pine bark and attach themselves to it. I rather have a substrate that I can shake off when I am moving into a bonsai pot than something I have to carefully remove, ripping root tips close to the tree trunk instead of having a clean cut from my shears.
Organics are great for development, but like Walter said, you have to master the watering needs on organic, while unless the tree is rootbound you can water to your hearts content and the excess water just flow out of the pot. Ryan is a big proponent for 100% akadama, and he suggests a 70% organic to 30% pumice or similar for growing out trees in development.
In the end, use what you like the most. I am in Texas, so I could benefit from using organics to minimize my watering... but I learned that in the end, its easier to clean up a root ball that has been established in inorganic soil than to clean up a mess of pine bark and peat moss from a nursery tree. Remember that the same as akadama, roots penetrate pine bark and attach themselves to it. I rather have a substrate that I can shake off when I am moving into a bonsai pot than something I have to carefully remove, ripping root tips close to the tree trunk instead of having a clean cut from my shears.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
its definitely not hard to master the watering needs of your tree, if youre a dedicated enthusiast.
the majority of growers on his forum, or who comment are these types of threads, generally dont have refined or show ready trees.
I guess theres a lot of variables, but for nursery trees at least ive picked up so many where it was just a matter of teasing out the roots with a root hook and revealing a pretty good root mass. I mean even this garden tree that Ryan digs up, it wasnt too hard to manage the root system at all.
'you are customising your soil system to the type of roots you are trying to grow' -Ryan neil
the majority of growers on his forum, or who comment are these types of threads, generally dont have refined or show ready trees.
I guess theres a lot of variables, but for nursery trees at least ive picked up so many where it was just a matter of teasing out the roots with a root hook and revealing a pretty good root mass. I mean even this garden tree that Ryan digs up, it wasnt too hard to manage the root system at all.
'you are customising your soil system to the type of roots you are trying to grow' -Ryan neil
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
he basically said, he didnt at this time need that tree to grow big course roots and quick growth, but for trees you in development you definitely do want some course growth. again it goes back to me saying its not a one size fits all. and tbf most are trying to get trees into bonsai pots too early. I get it, ive been guilty of it too.
Cajunrider
Imperial Masterpiece
Pretty much what I am doing with my collected trees. The trees I collected were severely pruned both top and bottom and I want fast growth to bring the trees quickly to health. The fact that I don't have much time every day for watering and often travels also factors into my decision to use more organic. When the time comes, I will switch to a mix to encourage finer roots growth.
August
Chumono
When you guys do talk about using mostly inorganic or mixes that are primarily inorganic, you're talking exclusively sifted bark right? I can't think of any other organic "granules". And from what I understand, mixing fines (potting mix) with granular aggregates creates a sopping brick of poor percolation / air flow... There is also a chance that was just hearsay that I stumbled on.
Either way, the bark "granules" I get around here is called Soil Pep, basically just composted forest products of a nice particle size. But from what I can tell from my experience with it, it's actually hydrophobic and hard to get wet by itself. Works well in mixes but I can't imagine going full on or mixing 30% pumice. I use it to cut mostly.
Ive heard tale of "coarse peat" but never been able to source even on line. And even then I can't imagine it's very consistent.
Either way, the bark "granules" I get around here is called Soil Pep, basically just composted forest products of a nice particle size. But from what I can tell from my experience with it, it's actually hydrophobic and hard to get wet by itself. Works well in mixes but I can't imagine going full on or mixing 30% pumice. I use it to cut mostly.
Ive heard tale of "coarse peat" but never been able to source even on line. And even then I can't imagine it's very consistent.
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
My response here is fairly simple: how many of us are trying to create show trees?
There's no arguing with the results of all inorganic substrate. The level of control over the growth of the tree is unparalleled.
But there's a tradeoff. You named a string of professionals. They have the resources, chief among them time, to dedicate to the work that that level of control requires.
Most of us are hobbyists. We're part-timers at best, and working with very restricted resources. We just don't have the wherewithal to engage in controlling exactly every single possible thing to create a perfect tree, and we adjust our expectations and practices accordingly.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Bonsai Dusseldorf uses up to 30% coco peat in their mix. They have plenty show winning trees.
Maiden69
Masterpiece
Well, I was answering to the below question (condensed version).
I think that with all things equal (price, availability, etc...) inorganic material will give you better results for a bonsai tree. You can control watering, fertilization availability, time the tree is in the substrate before it collapses and produce an anaerobic environment, etc... with mostly organics you have to manage every single thing for the tree to strive in a bonsai pot. I read here about how difficult it was to manage watering on organic substrates before the US started using mostly inorganics on a few old threads (early 2000's).
I think one of the things that scares most people is the additional watering needed with inorganics, but that can be solved with simple automatic systems. I made my first one with less than $100 and I was able to water all my trees, up to 4 times a day if needed set up into 4 different watering zones. Wouldn't you spend $100 for some peace of mind and the knowledge that your trees will do way better than if you were guessing when it was right to water? Right now I have 4 junipers still on the nursery soil, and I will be transitioning into inorganic this year... those are the ones that worry me the most as I don't want them to stay too wet, and there is no telling their state unless you stick your finger inside the container to check daily. Thankfully I have no need for additional watering at this time, but it is quickly warming up here.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
I think many of the points that people make about soils breaking down, losing air, becoming negative environments etc become mute, when most people here are likely repotting every 2-3 years.
watering is tricky at first for most entering the hobby, but I think by 3-4 years you would of nailed down your go to choices for soil and watering needs become easy and like second nature whatever mix you use.
Touching your trees, the soil, testing for moisture, being hands on is all part of the fun of nurturing a tree in a pot. some trees are going to require more water than others depending how developed their root systems are, no matter what substrates theyre in, the finger test is mandatory.
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ChristianDGreat
Shohin
I know someone also that put tree's in show and never use bonsai soil.
What I notice is, if we use bonsai soil we are subjected to water it more frequently
On the other hand if we have non-bonsai soil we have a water it differently (frequency).
From what I've seen tree's in non-bonsai soil tends to grow faster and vigorous, thats why
lots of people prefer to use them on developing trees (growers and trees that need trunk).
Once it goes to a bonsai soil the growth slow down.
My take is both will work, just need to adopt on how to handle it.
in South East Asia I know a couple of bonsai practitioner that doesnt use bonsai soil and still have a good tree's
But the other side of it is "what if they use bonsai soil"? will the result be better?
That's why I like this hobby lots of questions and "it depends" stuff
eugenev2
Shohin
Also people need to consider where in the world you are referring to. Here in South Africa for example the majority of the locally provided and available information is still from about 1950, which means about 90% of show trees are in 50 to 90 percent organics. There are some changing this mindset, but considering that this only started from 2011, it's slow going. So does these trees compete with the Bjorn and Ryan trees...probably not...does it compete locally...yes.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
At the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding
Ive found many gems that were predominantly grown in heavy organic soils, with radial root spreads and healthy, fibrous root systems. In perfect condition to now make the 'gradual' transition into more granular mixes....
Ive found many gems that were predominantly grown in heavy organic soils, with radial root spreads and healthy, fibrous root systems. In perfect condition to now make the 'gradual' transition into more granular mixes....
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I read recently that there is a product coming out of SA that holds some promise. I believe it was called “Sakadama”? There is a thread on here where it was introduced and discussed by someone in the company.
*edit for link
Potting soils sucks!! I wouldn't recommend anyone use it....one growing season in straight potting soil...there was not a single root above the cd at the beginning of the season.
Truth of the matter is that folks believe what they are told/sold and most don't do their own due diligence...
Truth of the matter is that folks believe what they are told/sold and most don't do their own due diligence...
eugenev2
Shohin
Yea, i cannot find much information about it. Only one bonsai club that i know of makes use of it. So considering that i can't find much information on it and it basically costs the same as premium akadama, i'm going with with the one with the tried and tested results.I read recently that there is a product coming out of SA that holds some promise. I believe it was called “Sakadama”? There is a thread on here where it was introduced and discussed by someone in the company.
*edit for link
wheatcherryowl
Seedling
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I think it's great when businesses take the environment into consideration and make efforts to be more sustainable. Plus, using organic soil can be beneficial for the trees themselves, as it can provide more nutrients and help retain moisture. Have you ever tried using organic soil for your own plants or bonsai? I'm curious to know how it worked out!
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