Trident maple design

[Rod]

I just got this trident maple, trunk is 3 1/2”-4”. First picture is the potential front and last picture is what I think is going to happen, and was wanting options on were to cut the two trunks back to start adding taper and start it’s on its way to a mop style bonsai. I will also do root work, grafts etc. , and put it in a wood box for a couple of years to develop.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Nice sumo trunk!

Not exactly clear on what style you are shooting for. Your mock up shows a future single trunk, or upright or possibly an informal upright style.

If it’s a broom style (vs mo) likely not where to cut… And the trunk seems not well suited for this style imho.

On the other hand, this tree might make a double trunk bonsai, but a twin trunk seems ideal. This would require an air layer to be done.

Here’s a page listing all bonsai styles for your reference.

No matter which style you choose, it might be wise to develop a plan to work the roots to develop a better nebari which would help develop better ramification up top in the future. There are a number of options to help, including yearly root work and air layering, to get the type of nebari this tree deserves.

There are numerous threads on developing nebari techniques on site.

Good Luck
DSD sends

 

[Rod]

Nice sumo trunk!

Not exactly clear on what style you are shooting for. Your mock up shows a future single trunk, or upright or possibly an informal upright style.

If it’s a broom style (vs mo) likely not where to cut… And the trunk seems not well suited for this style imho.

On the other hand, this tree might make a double trunk bonsai, but a twin trunk seems ideal. This would require an air layer to be done.

Here’s a page listing all bonsai styles for your reference.

No matter which style you choose, it might be wise to develop a plan to work the roots to develop a better nebari which would help develop better ramification up top in the future. There are a number of options to help, including yearly root work and air layering, to get the type of nebari this tree deserves.

There are numerous threads on developing nebari techniques on site.

Good Luck
DSD sends

My first thought is mop style or some type of double trunk. Developing branches to taper. I also have 10 saplings coming and thought of approach grafts were roots are needed. Just stuck on we’re to cut branches to create best movement for future development

 

[Rod]

Nice sumo trunk!

Not exactly clear on what style you are shooting for. Your mock up shows a future single trunk, or upright or possibly an informal upright style.

If it’s a broom style (vs mo) likely not where to cut… And the trunk seems not well suited for this style imho.

On the other hand, this tree might make a double trunk bonsai, but a twin trunk seems ideal. This would require an air layer to be done.

Here’s a page listing all bonsai styles for your reference.

No matter which style you choose, it might be wise to develop a plan to work the roots to develop a better nebari which would help develop better ramification up top in the future. There are a number of options to help, including yearly root work and air layering, to get the type of nebari this tree deserves.

There are numerous threads on developing nebari techniques on site.

Good Luck
DSD sends

In your opinion then if I go double trunk take the trunk on left out to the left. Then take bigger trunk on right let it stay longer developing some movement and taper a few inches higher?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

In your opinion then if I go double trunk take the trunk on left out to the left. Then take bigger trunk on right let it stay longer developing some movement and taper a few inches higher?

So sorry for the delay, but things at rockin’ wall to wall Bonsai and landscaping at our place right now.

In regards to your question(s)).

That would be okay…. There’d be a lot of caliper stepdown above the break on the larger trunk to overcome unless the design is larger. But not insurmountable.

As far as the nebari goes, you certainly could try a bunch of thread grafts there. It would be a fun experiment and folks know how I love experiments! Yet a ground or air layer would do this job much more efficiently.,.. taking less time and looking more refined.

This is my opinion only.

Another thought to consider would be to achieve a Mother daughter design by air layering right at the fork in the trunk. This would yield both a convincing design and decent nebari in one year.

Just a thought.

Best of luck with this tree!

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Shibui]

By mop top style I guess you mean something like broom style given you've left part of both thick trunks in the virt. I'd be happy to go that way and Probably the cuts you've indicated will be a good start.
Because you already have some reasonably strong branches to start the new trunk extensions you can cut reasonable close to those with an appropriate angled cut. Seal the cuts as soon as possible which seems to reduce the amount of die back that occurs when the exposed cambium dries out. You'll probably still need to reduce the cuts after a year or 2 to get closer to the new leaders and remove any areas where bark has died back.
Cuts like that should stimulate lots of new buds. Hopefully they will give you the new branches you want, otherwise grafting is not hard with tridents.

 

[Rod]

By mop top style I guess you mean something like broom style given you've left part of both thick trunks in the virt. I'd be happy to go that way and Probably the cuts you've indicated will be a good start.
Because you already have some reasonably strong branches to start the new trunk extensions you can cut reasonable close to those with an appropriate angled cut. Seal the cuts as soon as possible which seems to reduce the amount of die back that occurs when the exposed cambium dries out. You'll probably still need to reduce the cuts after a year or 2 to get closer to the new leaders and remove any areas where bark has died back.
Cuts like that should stimulate lots of new buds. Hopefully they will give you the new branches you want, otherwise grafting is not hard with tridents.

Thanks yes I meant broom style, it’s a big trunk and I think it could be a good tree in a few years wanting to create movement outwards from trunk. But once it’s cut it adds years to change it later. Thanks

 

[Shibui]

If it is possible try to find a place with small branch on either side of where you want to chop. Make a V cut between those and you have already added more branches to the structure as well as taper from thick to thin. The chop usually heals quicker with a branch growing either side and the scar is less visible.
My crude drawing may help though hard to show on the front trunk as the opposite shoot is hidden behind??

Broom style does not usually have a single leader. Branches keep dividing and growing further up and out and dividing into more upward branches to create an umbrella canopy.

 

[Rod]

If it is possible try to find a place with small branch on either side of where you want to chop. Make a V cut between those and you have already added more branches to the structure as well as taper from thick to thin. The chop usually heals quicker with a branch growing either side and the scar is less visible.
My crude drawing may help though hard to show on the front trunk as the opposite shoot is hidden behind??
View attachment 480816
Broom style does not usually have a single leader. Branches keep dividing and growing further up and out and dividing into more upward branches to create an umbrella canopy.

I was wondering if something like that could be done. I really like that idea! Seems like a very logical way to go, will I want to make the cuts concave inside of the v cut to keep it more natural looking in the future? Thank you I really appreciate the advice and guidance. I do have one more question, I have some seedlings coming can I do some approach grafts at this time also, or is it better to just do root work to get it in a wood box with the cuts you have suggested?

 

[Shibui]

It can be difficult to make V cuts hollow but if you have the means do so and will not damage adjacent leaders. I prefer to make the initial cuts with a saw then wait for the new leaders to gain strength before deciding to make adjustments. You may find as the bark rolls over the cuts there's no need to hollow them out as new callus around the edges grows higher and the centre wood may rot a little before the bark heals completely over.

Assuming your approach grafts are for adding new roots, tridents do not seem to have any problem with root prune, trunk chop and grafting roots in one operation. Success rate will depend on your skill and care afterwards more than whether the tree was pruned.

 

[Rod]

It can be difficult to make V cuts hollow but if you have the means do so and will not damage adjacent leaders. I prefer to make the initial cuts with a saw then wait for the new leaders to gain strength before deciding to make adjustments. You may find as the bark rolls over the cuts there's no need to hollow them out as new callus around the edges grows higher and the centre wood may rot a little before the bark heals completely over.

Assuming your approach grafts are for adding new roots, tridents do not seem to have any problem with root prune, trunk chop and grafting roots in one operation. Success rate will depend on your skill and care afterwards more than whether the tree was pruned.

The trunk on the left in picture has a branch directly opposite it and I think is well suited for v cut. The branch on the right has 3 buds about 1/2” lower in back would a v cut still be appropriate having longer steeper angle cut on front branch

 

[Rod]

 

[Rod]

 

[Shibui]

That's about what I would have done. You've left enough meat around those new leaders and they should be OK. When they are stronger - maybe next spring? - you can recut closer to make the transition from thick to thin a bit smoother.

 

[Rod]

That's about what I would have done. You've left enough meat around those new leaders and they should be OK. When they are stronger - maybe next spring? - you can recut closer to make the transition from thick to thin a bit smoother.

Thanks for the advice. Would you mind if I ask for more help as it progresses, the v cut looks like the correct direction to start. It was a real pain to cut with the two trunks so close. Thanks

 

[Shibui]

No problem if you need help and my experience might be of some use.

I did not that those trunks were close together and knew that to get new leaders to the side you would have to cut toward the other trunk. Short saw strokes makes a slow job even more slow but the result looks good.

 

[Rod]

No problem if you need help and my experience might be of some use.

I did not that those trunks were close together and knew that to get new leaders to the side you would have to cut toward the other trunk. Short saw strokes makes a slow job even more slow but the result looks good.

It took me 30 minutes to cut the big trunk, the smaller one to 15 minutes back and forth to make sure cuts would line up. 1/4-1/2” strokes at a time.

 

[Rod]

It took me 30 minutes to cut the big trunk, the smaller one to 15 minutes back and forth to make sure cuts would line up. 1/4-1/2” strokes at a time.

No problem if you need help and my experience might be of some use.

I did not that those trunks were close together and knew that to get new leaders to the side you would have to cut toward the other trunk. Short saw strokes makes a slow job even more slow but the result looks good.

Just wondering I got this tree from Georgia I live in central Illinois after all this work leaves don’t look real good , is it normal change in climate or something I did or didn’t do?

 

[Rod]

Just wondering I got this tree from Georgia I live in central Illinois after all this work leaves don’t look real good , is it normal change in climate or something I did or didn’t do?

 

[Rod]

Just wondering I got this tree from Georgia I live in central Illinois after all this work leaves don’t look real good , is it normal change in climate or something I did or didn’t do?

View attachment 481378