Sometimes PH matters

[Joe Dupre']

A friend of mine spent big money on a trident maple form a local bonsai nursery about a month ago. It was in perfect health. Two weeks at my friend's place, and it started getting sickly with black leaf edges. He thought it might be some sort of a fungus, but the remedies didn't work. After a week of that, he called the bonsai nursery manager and explained the problem. He said to bring it in so he could look at it. Long story short....... my friend's tap water ( and mine too ) ended up being about an 8 ph. The nursery uses water from a huge aquafer that runs 6.4 or so. The manager kept the tree to nurse it back to health........which he did. He even gave my friend another, smaller maple to use his corrected water on as a test. Both trees are doing fine.

My friend is now installing a ph monitoring system for his watering. I bought a small ph meter and will experiment with small batches of corrected water ( approx. 1 oz of vinegar per 5 gallons of water) on my Mikawa maple, junipers and mulberries. It seems MANY trees prefer a bit of acidic environment. Ever notice how great trees look after a day or so of rain? Rainwater runs 5-6 ph. It stands to reason that plants like the very conditions that Nature provides.

Anyway, if your trees are having problems, maybe look into the ph of your soil and/or your water.

Props to Evan at Underhill Nursery for very professional service.

 

[Gabler]

It is illegal for a municipal water supply to have a pH lower than about 8, since most municipalities have old lead pipes, and the alkaline water will not corrode the lead and poison the water supply. That means most of us are watering our trees with bad water. I use Holly Tone on all of my trees for that reason. Trees that don't need a lower pH still don't seem to mind it, and trees that hate a higher pH become sickly without it.

 

[ERClover]

It is illegal for a municipal water supply to have a pH lower than about 8, since most municipalities have old lead pipes, and the alkaline water will not corrode the lead and poison the water supply. That means most of us are watering our trees with bad water. I use Holly Tone on all of my trees for that reason. Trees that don't need a lower pH still don't seem to mind it, and trees that hate a higher pH become sickly without it.

Have been hitting all my conifers and acid lovers with Holly Tone, might spread the love around. A Blueberry bush I’m growing out had red leaves and a goodly amount of Holly Tone mixed in greened them right up.

 

[penumbra]

I love Holly Tone and used it at least 50 years back. The problem I have with it now is that raccoons, possums and such love to dig in the pots it is in looking for food. This has happened to me repeatedly, but I do live in a forest. Mir-acid is one of my go tos.

 

[Joe Dupre']

I looked into Holly Tone. I have been using Muracid from Miracle-gro on my blueberries, azaleas and bougainvilleas, Holly Tone also looks promising. Our municipal water supplier lists 8.5 ph as maximum allowed.

The 6.4 ph water that Underhill nursery uses seems to work incredibly well. From our first trip two months ago to our next trip a couple of weeks ago, the row of ground grown trident maple was a HEDGE you couldn't see through!

 

[ERClover]

I love Holly Tone and used it at least 50 years back. The problem I have with it now is that raccoons, possums and such love to dig in the pots it is in looking for food. This has happened to me repeatedly, but I do live in a forest. Mir-acid is one of my go tos.

It’s interesting with animals and fert. I brought home a bag of bone meal a couple weeks back and one of my dogs is nuts for it. Pulled it out of the bucket it was in and tore it open herself before I saw what was going on. Applied it to the Blueberry and Blackberry I am growing and she pushed her way through the makeshift fencing I have so my toddler can’t get to the section of the deck they’re on to get at it! No idea why but it’s like catnip to her.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Anyway, if your trees are having problems, maybe look into the ph of your soil and/or your water.

This conversation surfaces every few years. I should probably post up a resource about it.

It is not uncommon for containerized plants that are highly dependent on alkaline irrigation water to suffer chlorosis from lack of iron or manganese - even if there is plenty of iron and manganese in the soil. Most trees do best in mildly acidic conditions with a soil pH of about 6.5. As pH rises from this point, several micronutrients become less soluble and less available for plant uptake. Unless you are using well or lake/rain water for your irrigation, you should make sure you understand your tap water pH - and be prepared to use acid fertilizers.

 

[MHBonsai]

I’ve had similar issues. Started using ph-down regularly and all my deciduous are thriving better than ever. You can buy bottles online. Very effective.

I thought it was fungus forever.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

In Louisiana and parts of Mississippi there are pockets were the well water is slightly salty, essentially "fossil water" from a time when a slightly salty ocean covered the region. Still considered potable, but in Mississippi where I was visiting the water tasted slightly salty and had a slight phenolic tint to the water. Tended to make me want to drink bottled water. So municipal water can vary beyond issues like pH. In fact for most plants pH is a trivial issue.

But @Gabler is correct, your municipality must keep the pH above 8 to prevent lead poisoning. We don't want more Flint Michigan situations. The use of a little acid fertilizer goes a long way.

People with local water issues should get their local water reports to understand what they are dealing with. In desert areas, you can have very high total dissolved solids. In Karst areas like southwest Wisconsin you can have very high calcium and magnesium in your well water. In Mississippi and Louisiana some areas have fairly salty water,. Get your local water analysis and look at it.

Then either contact your AgExt agent or post results on BNut and we can talk about what it means.

Generally less than 100 ppm sodium the salt won't hurt "most hardy" species. If the Calcium and magnesium combined of your water is less than 360 ppm you should have little trouble growing most stuff. BUT calcium over 75 to 150 ppm will effect the more sensitive species like Rhododendrons, etc.

Potting media can compensate for excess calcium in irrigation water to a limited degree. bark-peat blends will absorb calcium to a point, Azalea & Rhodies, if repotted regularly, can be kept healthy even with moderately high levels of calcium in irrigation water. And of course, rain water is "technically" calcium free and somewhat acidic. The more often you can water your acid loving plants with rain water the less an issue your municipal water will be. I have 2 rain barrels.

 

[RoadManDenDron]

I use PH down for people who grow 'other plants' if you catch my drift,

Important to get a grow phase one as it is Nitric Acid, this provides nitrogen for your trees as well as lower the PH

because as BNut demonstrates past a certain PH transition metals are unavailable

Bloom ph down is phosphoric acid which locks up calcium, so is best avoided

Calcium phosphate is what makes up bone! 98% insoluble in water

Calcium nitrate is 98% soluble!

 

[Paradox]

It is illegal for a municipal water supply to have a pH lower than about 8, since most municipalities have old lead pipes, and the alkaline water will not corrode the lead and poison the water supply. That means most of us are watering our trees with bad water. I use Holly Tone on all of my trees for that reason. Trees that don't need a lower pH still don't seem to mind it, and trees that hate a higher pH become sickly without it.

Illegal where though?
I don't think it's illegal everywhere.
The pH of my tap is usually around 7.4 on average according to the WQ reports. Range 6.5-9 according to the report.

It is county supplied water so technically "municipal" but not city. I don't think we have a lot of lead pipes here. In NYC they probably do though but it's a different water supply

 

[CapeCodBonsai]

I don't think we have a lot of lead pipes here

Lead water SERVICE piping (the stuff in the street/underground that brings water to your house) was banned in NY in 1961 however, leaded solder (50-60%) was used to join copper water piping in homes up to 1986.

 

[Shibui]

I thought lead pipes went out with the Romans but find it wasn't banned until the 1930s
I don't think there's significant lead pipes anywhere in Australia but reticulated water is still treated to raise pH above 6.5 in all water supply systems.
Lead is a part of solder which was used to join copper pipes but was banned here in 1989. One source says there's enough lead from soldered joints to bring water above safe limits.
I also found that brass which is commonly used for tapware and joiners can have up to 3% lead and there's now a 3 year phase out of any lead in plumbing fittings, starting in 2023.

Acid water can also damage distribution and consumer pipes.
Acidic water can slowly corrode copper and therefore damage residential pipework. We experienced this first hand at my previous property where we used well water which turned out to be acidic. The water dissolved the hot water tank and a brass pipe through the wall before I realised what was happening. Fortunately no lasting health issues but my teenage daughter complained about her blonde hair turning green. Copper poisoning has also been noted in some areas due to acidic water in copper water heaters.
Acidic water can also slowly corrode cement based pipes. I'd say there would be far more cement pipes than lead pipes so another reason for water authorities to raise pH of reticulated water.

There is some mention of pH affecting the flocculation process which is used to remove dirt, particles and other contaminants from the water but it appears that high pH is detrimental so raising pH is done after flocculation.

And, finally back to @Joe Dupre'
pH of water always matters for all the reasons given so far and more. Sometimes it is not fatal but it has always affected a range of plant growth factors.

 

[Paradox]

Lead water SERVICE piping (the stuff in the street/underground that brings water to your house) was banned in NY in 1961 however, leaded solder (50-60%) was used to join copper water piping in homes up to 1986.

Interesting
My house was built in 1987 or 1988 so if the builder followed the rules, my pipes shouldn't have the lead solder. Do you know what was used after 1986 to solder copper pipes?

 

[Jrmcmich]

Very interesting…I have a coworker whose copper pipes have developed pin holes in some over the years from the water as well. Amazing what certain things in water can do over time.

What is best way to test water PH level? Have seen strips and a meter online. Definitely would like to check mine as I primarily use tap water unless it rained and some trees seem to battle black tips and others seem fine.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Interesting
My house was built in 1987 or 1988 so if the builder followed the rules, my pipes shouldn't have the lead solder. Do you know what was used after 1986 to solder copper pipes?

If you have a good plumber, silver If you were using a cheap plumber, or the work was not very important, antimony. Tin and copper are often added, depending on the work being done.

 

[R0b]

This won’t be a solution for everyone but if you can find a way to capture and store rainwater. I have 1m3 storage that I use 60-80 of the time. After that I switch to a shallow well (essentially also rainwater).

 

[Gabler]

Interesting
My house was built in 1987 or 1988 so if the builder followed the rules, my pipes shouldn't have the lead solder. Do you know what was used after 1986 to solder copper pipes?

It has less to do with the pipes in your house than the pipes underground connecting your house to a water supply.

 

[Paradox]

It has less to do with the pipes in your house than the pipes underground connecting your house to a water supply.

We used to be on a well. Some time after 2000, they ran the main water lines down our street and we had the option to hook up. As this was well after the ban on lead pipes, they used copper. The main line is ductile iron a.k.a. cast iron.

 

[MHBonsai]

Very interesting…I have a coworker whose copper pipes have developed pin holes in some over the years from the water as well. Amazing what certain things in water can do over time.

What is best way to test water PH level? Have seen strips and a meter online. Definitely would like to check mine as I primarily use tap water unless it rained and some trees seem to battle black tips and others seem fine.

https://www.amazon.com/Temperature-Measurement-Digital-Precision-Drinking/dp/B0CZ3C9N2G/ref=mp_s_a_1_8?crid=1TLZFIIOQHYM8&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.jsoP--tAStrRZRs3NM4KlRWjCTTZiOP8TYgq8fAGaKocRq-Ha8GIooYwJESm6PIXin-4loAi1A7nJ6aHxalimFv8li6yRwKBgHSFewOoRQ1MMW5rb3H6hyazzG3CRiSm68J86xfqxCMqX33SW223J-rq3FGJztR0O2kLivSOPQQcTdtmzard41TNYjYdksW4mCM2BopUMDha2NlM0XGQ4A.T3chOR12_ru8L3iWo4CQrML-yS4Jz-Lnnd4ttRlnqtM&dib_tag=se&keywords=ph+meter&qid=1714832143&sprefix=ph+%2Caps%2C148&sr=8-8

I use one like this. Get one you can calibrate.