Best soil for developing trees?

[Eric Group]

I second perlite as an excellent development medium for the same reasons mentioned by Leo, in ground or pot. If you let someone convince you that akadama is necessary for premium tree growth, I have a few bridges and ocean front property in Arizona that I want to sell you.

I use perlite a lot, and have found it to be a great soil ingredient!

I use It for cuttings- mixed with a little peat moss to give the new roots some nutrients, and I usually toss in a little bit of a heavier component like turface to help hold the small ones in place. Larger cuttings are usually wired down and don't need the weight.

I have added a little to my "bonsai mix" but I know a lot of people don't like it because it is so white... Looks "unnatural" or so I am told. Doesn't bother me... Hell Pumice is pretty white too, and it is hugely popular!

Mostly I have been using it for my "pro mix" substitute where I just have a commercial Peat mix with moisture retention elements mixed with the perlite. I think pro mix normally has some vermiculite as well, but that stuff isn't my favorite...

I know people get real touchy on this subject, so I haven't posted here in a bit... I was discussing it with a buddy recently and he said he was once told "you can grow Bonsai in marbles if you water them the right way". Or something along those lines... I believe Ken said Yoshimura told him that? My memory sucks though I could be wrong, regardless- I feel there is some truth to that statement. Obviously I am not touting marbles as the next big thing when it comes to bonsai soil, just saying I believe most any reasonable soil ingredient can produce healthy plants if you understand the water retention properties and care for the tree accordingly.

Turface seems to be the hot item to hate on right now. I don't get it... I have used it for a long time, so have plenty of others I know and it gives me great results! It is cheap, easy to find, perfect shape and size, absorbs some water but doesn't get muddy, never breaks down. It is REUSABLE for Crying out loud!.. Is it something you can use by itself? Probably not a great idea... But when mixed with some pumice and a little pine bark or maybe some perlite.. Even a bit of peat perhaps... It can constitute a healthy portion of your soil mix and I have never noticed any ill effects. On the contrary, the trees I have put in mixes like this have all thrived! Maples, azalea, juniper, Pines... I have potted all in mixes with plenty of turface in them (20-30% depending on the tree..) and they do well.

I really started this thread though not to discuss the components of a good bonsai mix- I know what I want to use for that, though I am always interested in new options. I was really trying to see if people use a different mix for young/ developing trees, or do most use the same components they would use for a developed tree that has been in a Bonsai tray for a long time and is far along in training/ refinement? How about when you plant one in the ground to grow out? Is it compost/ nursery soil you fill in the hole with, or are people dumping gallons of Boon's mix in the ground around the developing tree? LOL

That is what I am curious about. If there is a difference int he soil you use between young and mature trees, when do you make the switch? Is it gradual over a couple repottings, or do you just bare root it and go all in with the inorganic mix?

That is kind of what I wanted to gear this soil conversation towards. I know we all have our little mixes for our trees... What about their babies?

In the end what soil mix we use isn't as important as we all think it is. Sure, the goal is to get optimum results, out perform nature... Get extreme/ crazy healthy trees... But when you think about it plants/ trees will grow in ANYTHING! A tiny rock crevice with about 50 grains of sand and some bird poop from 5 years ago? Check... Rock solid red clay bed out in the woods anywhere around SC?= Pine tree city... Sand dunes made of what is basically 100% dry sand- sure... Hell the area I live is called the SAND HILLS for a reason. Old sand dunes from millions of years ago when the ocean was this far inland cover this area- mostly dry sandy soil on top with hard packed clay beneath- oaks, Pines, Maples... Growing wild, free and happy as can be all over. Root rot? Pfft... I see huge trees growing in straight up WATER- ponds, swamps... Not just Cypress either. elms, Oaks, Maples... How can they grow under water? Don't they know their roots need that perfect ratio of air to water that only Akadama can provide? My point should be clear- trees WANT TO GROW! We just need to find good soil that won't Kill them when grown in a pot, and the rest is semantics... The trees do all the work and I bet they laugh at us for making such a fuss over where they put their roots! LOL

 

[edprocoat]

Eric, personally I think root rot is not an effect of the lack of the "perfect mixture of air to water" I believe its caused by stagnant water that can not drain from your pot. Stagnant water causes decay as it harbors harmful bacteria which kills living things. Hell, we can not drink stagnant water why would our plants be able to drink it either?

ed

 

[Vance Wood]

Eric, personally I think root rot is not an effect of the lack of the "perfect mixture of air to water" I believe its caused by stagnant water that can not drain from your pot. Stagnant water causes decay as it harbors harmful bacteria which kills living things. Hell, we can not drink stagnant water why would our plants be able to drink it either?

ed

If you have stagnant water in your pots you do not have good air circulation. There is a thing called field capacity. This is the amount of water a soil mix will hold before water just runs off. The goal in a bonsai soil mix is to have a low field capacity where the introduction of water saturates the soil to field capacity and drives out the existing stagnant air in the soil. The rapidity at which the soil surrenders its field capacity causes the soil to bring in fresh air. It is this effect that hinders root rot.

Root rot is phitofitora something or other, a fungal infection that thrives on stagnant air and stagnant water. In short you want a soil mix that drains quickly and does not hold too much moisture that when over watering causes its elements to break down and increase the field capacity. So you stay away from things that break down quickly or unpredictably. You want to put this into a little better perspective you should find Walter Pall's article on fertilizing, it's a bit of an eye opener.

 

[bwaynef]

In the end what soil mix we use isn't as important as we all think it is. Sure, the goal is to get optimum results, out perform nature... Get extreme/ crazy healthy trees... But when you think about it plants/ trees will grow in ANYTHING! A tiny rock crevice with about 50 grains of sand and some bird poop from 5 years ago? Check... Rock solid red clay bed out in the woods anywhere around SC?= Pine tree city... Sand dunes made of what is basically 100% dry sand- sure... Hell the area I live is called the SAND HILLS for a reason. Old sand dunes from millions of years ago when the ocean was this far inland cover this area- mostly dry sandy soil on top with hard packed clay beneath- oaks, Pines, Maples... Growing wild, free and happy as can be all over. Root rot? Pfft... I see huge trees growing in straight up WATER- ponds, swamps... Not just Cypress either. elms, Oaks, Maples... How can they grow under water? Don't they know their roots need that perfect ratio of air to water that only Akadama can provide? My point should be clear- trees WANT TO GROW! We just need to find good soil that won't Kill them when grown in a pot, and the rest is semantics... The trees do all the work and I bet they laugh at us for making such a fuss over where they put their roots! LOL

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/earthpot.htm

 

[Poink88]

There is a saying that "the best lies are founded on truth". Misinformation is the same. Get some facts and tweak it by adding or deleting a few details to deliver the desired result. (whatever it is)

The argument about root rot and impermeable sides of container are all good but it is often stretched too much. If you use clay as potting medium, it is not ideal but your tree won't die or get root rot IF you know how to water accordingly.

Pots are shallow...air go through the top and bottom...maybe much more than in earth where it is permeable in all sides but so deep that air have less access from all sides. By substrate nature, the more dense it is, the higher the shrinkage factor also. As clay dries, the entire mass shrinks giving the sides access to air and/or water.

As substrate dries, water vacates pores and as it does...air have to replace its position. It is reversed when it is watered and air is pushed out...and the cycle continues. If you do not compensate for the slower drainage then you will have big problems such as rot.

I am not advocating anyone to use clay but it is the worst substrate that can be used so I am using that as an example to be fair (biased against my argument actually).

Use marble if you wish but between the two...I'd use clay first before I use marbles. That is because of my weather, and other factors.

That said, perfect soil is dependent on many, many factors and it usually resides between the marbles and the clay. It is not black or white but different shades of gray for most of us.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Eric Group]

Ok great, so we established clay is not a god medium, nor are marbles... A pot is different from planting in the ground and root rot exists...

But, what do ya'll (yeah I am from the south, substitute "you guys" or you'uns if it makes you feel better..) plant your developing trees in? How about those you are putting in the ground to grow out?

That is what I a trying to get at here...

I realize my long winded off topic posts send this thread off in all kinds of funky directions, my point was just to say trees are a little more durable and hardy than many seem to give them credit for. Like any animal/ plant, they WANT to grow and if you give them reasonable care they will do just that. I know the answers as to what bonsai mix is best will be different from just about everybody I ask... But again, I am trying to find out what others do with young developing trees where the goal is rapid growth, not refinement in a bonsai tray. So, you have a half inch trunk on a Trident whip, you decide it is time to plant that thing int he ground until it gets to two or three inches- you dig a hole, plant on a board/ tile/ garbage bag/ whatever and then you fill in the hole with.... What exactly?

Just wondering... I would have to scan back through the thread but it seems almost nobody has answered that question for me. I do thank everyone for the detailed responses received. I have gotten a lot of good info from this thread already! This is probably more of a curiosity thing than informational... I tend to mix it up based on what I am planting and what is available but I am just curious what others do.

Thanks

 

[johng]

I would respond but you already know what I do...and I gave up on soil threads a long time ago...try a couple things...see what works for you. Then you to can be a soil expert.

 

[coh]

My approach (from an earlier post in this thread) is below.

For trees in the ground, I amend the soil in my growing bed with compost, used bonsai mix and the screenings from sifting bonsai components (so finer turface, pumice, whatever I have on hand). I'm thinking I might start amending my grow bed soil with more turface.

I haven't been doing this long enough to have long term results (for ground or container growing) to point to.

Chris

Edit to add - to Eric's original point...for trees that I'm "growing out" (i.e. for trunk size) I generally use something similar to a standard nursery mix. It varies but usually includes peat, bark, perlite as a base. I'll often add more perlite and/or turface and sometimes potting soil, depending on the species. The main reason I do this is for cost, it's much cheaper to fill a 10+ gallon pot with this stuff than with boon mix. As trees move from the trunk development stage into smaller pots for finer development, I transition gradually toward a more standard bonsai soil.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

I second perlite as an excellent development medium for the same reasons mentioned by Leo, in ground or pot. If you let someone convince you that akadama is necessary for premium tree growth, I have a few bridges and ocean front property in Arizona that I want to sell you.

Akadama may not be necessary for premium tree growth, but premium results without akadama is about as common as a winning lottery ticket. If you disagree, I would like to see pictures of "premium" roots grown without akadama and how it was done.

 

[Poink88]

Akadama may not be necessary for premium tree growth, but premium results without akadama is about as common as a winning lottery ticket. If you disagree, I would like to see pictures of "premium" roots grown without akadama and how it was done.

First you need to define what is "premium" maybe post sample pictures (doesn't have to be yours)...then maybe (just maybe) I or others can show you something similar. BTW, you will most likely have to wait until I need to repot...I won't uproot any of my trees just to show you.

BTW, if I am not mistaken, Walter Pall doesn't use Akadama...maybe you should question how healthy his tree roots are.

 

[GrimLore]

Akadama may not be necessary for premium tree growth, but premium results without akadama is about as common as a winning lottery ticket. If you disagree, I would like to see pictures of "premium" roots grown without akadama and how it was done.

I am not getting into an argument about it but I think you will soon learn that MANY do not use Akadama and never will as in many situations it can and does more harm then good. I do not use it and I most often do not repot every year - if I did that with Akadama the long term results would be a disaster...

Grimmy

"Crap! I got lured into another substrate circus!"

 

[Vance Wood]

Akadama may not be necessary for premium tree growth, but premium results without akadama is about as common as a winning lottery ticket. If you disagree, I would like to see pictures of "premium" roots grown without akadama and how it was done.

I don't know how you can possibly make that kind of assessment. You would have had to see hundreds or thousands of examples of the root development people have obtained without Akadama, which leads me to believe that you really have not been doing bonsai long enough to really know anything. But; you have been sold on this idea by your "World Famous Teacher" who you happen to think is God, that this is so.

 

[lordy]

I'm in the process of repotting almost everything I have into Akadama and or Dry Stall pumice. Might get crazy and add some lava too. Until I see a problem, or no benefit, I will continue this practice. I see no reason to spend a lot on tools, pots, material, workshops, symposiums, etc. and scrimp on what promotes (or not) growth of good roots.
I recently repotted a chuhin Korean Hornbeam from my old turface/bark/grit and while it was not mud, the roots were not great. Many were long and beginning to circle, but just not healthy looking. I'm certain it had been less than 2 years, and while the canopy looked OK, I wonder what it might have looked like with a better mix of substrate. Time will tell if I changed for no reason, or for good reason.

 

[nathanbs]

First you need to define what is "premium" maybe post sample pictures (doesn't have to be yours)...then maybe (just maybe) I or others can show you something similar. BTW, you will most likely have to wait until I need to repot...I won't uproot any of my trees just to show you.

BTW, if I am not mistaken, Walter Pall doesn't use Akadama...maybe you should question how healthy his tree roots are.

Now if im not mistaken Pall doesnt use akadama because of how cold his climate gets, which I understand causes akadama to break down more rapidly than the roots are ramifying.(A lot of people dont understand this aspect of akadama but the mere fact that it breaks down is fantastic for fine root development. Its when the fine roots do not exist that you do not want fines in your soil.)

 

[GrimLore]

Now if im not mistaken Pall doesnt use akadama because of how cold his climate gets, which I understand causes akadama to break down more rapidly than the roots are ramifying.(A lot of people dont understand this aspect of akadama but the mere fact that it breaks down is fantastic for fine root development. Its when the fine roots do not exist that you do not want fines in your soil.)

As I stated many do not use it for different reasons... The whole substrate "deal" depends on a lot more then what one feels is ok...

Grimmy

 

[Poink88]

Nathan,

I understand & know that much about Akadama and yes that is the reason why Walter doesn't use it but DarthTanuki's statement that you cannot have good roots if you do not use Akadama IMHO is FALSE.

 

[wireme]

Rmj after 3 yrs in 70 percent granite grit and 30 percent uncomposted bark chunks. Premium? Dunno but pretty good for 2 soil components that are not well thought of by many.

For bulk soil for developing stock I plan on using perlite and bark this year, Brent from evergreen has said here before it works well for him. If I do get a bulk order of pumice I'll use that in place of perlite.

The pic is a snapshot from an old thread of mine.

 

[nathanbs]

Nathan,

I understand & know that much about Akadama and yes that is the reason why Walter doesn't use it but DarthTanuki's statement that you cannot have good roots if you do not use Akadama IMHO is FALSE.

I was only quoting you for the Pall reference, I wasnt insinuating that you know nothing of akadama. Whats interesting about these soil arguments is that the majority of the time people have no clue what they are using and why. Their supporting argument is Wang Lo, the infamous teacher out of Southern Vietnam uses petrified turtle poop so that is why I use it in New Hampshire.
Akadama is absolutely amazing for me in Southern California where #1)I know how to use it #2) its relatively affordable and very easy to come by #3)We dont freeze, and if so rarely.

 

[nathanbs]

The questions for soil components are:
1)What do you use to hold water?
2)what do you use to ensure that your soil isnt too wet? If/when necessary
3)What do you use to hold fertilizer in the soil?

 

[Vance Wood]

Nathan,

I understand & know that much about Akadama and yes that is the reason why Walter doesn't use it but DarthTanuki's statement that you cannot have good roots if you do not use Akadama IMHO is FALSE.

It's not so much false as it is wrong headed and in a word: Ignorant. Anyone who comes from the point of view that it is their way or the wrong way is coming from no way.