Best soil for developing trees?
- Thread starter Eric Group
- Start date
Eric Group
Masterpiece
Dang... I had no idea Obama was so into Bonsai! Maybe if a president really was into Bonsai we could get that silly two year quarantine requirement lifted from Japanese imports!
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
As long as its after November...nothing would surprise me.
BTW, Mr. Clinton had a few bonsai in the White House on a few occasions.
http://capitalbonsai.wordpress.com/tag/secretary-clinton/
Eric Group
Masterpiece
Wow, that was a great read! Thanks for posting... I would say the way he explains using a dryer mix to get more growth seems counter intuitive to what most people are probably doing to develop their trees!
fraser67
Shohin
Thanks for posting Smoke...I wonder what happened to those trees??
Eric Group
Masterpiece
Here is another fan of Boon's mix!
http://bonsaitonight.com/2010/10/01/bonsai-soil/
http://bonsaitonight.com/2010/10/01/bonsai-soil/
Eric Group
Masterpiece
Cool, I kind of got that impression from the article... I spent some time last night researching Boon's site and pricing his soil mix... I have used Pumice- my mix has been something more of a combination of Pumice, turface, and a little composted pine bark and plant material... I strain it to remove any fines and have had some success with it so far, but I wish I could find some Akadama that is easily accessible and relatively affordable in my area... We don't even have a real "Bonsai nursery" in my city. I will have to ask some friends where to get it. Between You and Smoke, and many of the articles I have read lately, I want to try to improve my Bonsai mix and it sounds lie, Akadama would be a suitable medium in my area- we don't USUALLY have real bad winters and don't have like constant rain that would cause it to stay water logged... Maybe my bad experiences with inorganic soil was due to using the wrong kind of mix...
Since I am not going out to the West Coast any time soon, and probably couldn't afford $575 for an intensive right now, I am thinking of ordering one or two of his videos! Have you seen any? I am sure it is nothing compared to going to his classes, but it would probably be better than nothing...
So just to clarify Adair, do you keep all your trees in Boon's mix all the time pretty much? I mean trees that are young and in development as well as more mature trees that are in the refinement phase, Or do you use a different mix early on and move them into Boon's mix once you are potting them into a Bonsai tray and working on refinement? How about trees in the ground, being grown out- How do you handle the soil for those? Plant in a pot, put that in the ground and let the roots "escape", plant right in the ground...? I am sure since you have been doing this for forty years, most of your trees are probably much farther along than my own, so maybe you don't even have many you consider to be "pre- bonsai" any longer...
Thanks!
My trees are all in Boon mix. Or getting there, if I did a half bare root last potting.
Plant City Bonsai in Clermont, GA has akadama.
Did you read the Peter Tea blog post referenced earlier in this thread? If not, you should. Or we're you the one who posted it? Can't remember.
Peter, by the way, was a Boon student before his apprenticeship in Japan. Boon was the one who referred him. Referrals are very important in Japan.
Yes, I have Boon's JBP DVD series. Next best thing to an Intensive, I guess. I got the DVD and then decided I needed to do the Intensives. I'm about half way thru the 3 year program.
I don't have any trees in the ground. I'd use collendars instead.
Plant City Bonsai in Clermont, GA has akadama.
Did you read the Peter Tea blog post referenced earlier in this thread? If not, you should. Or we're you the one who posted it? Can't remember.
Peter, by the way, was a Boon student before his apprenticeship in Japan. Boon was the one who referred him. Referrals are very important in Japan.
Yes, I have Boon's JBP DVD series. Next best thing to an Intensive, I guess. I got the DVD and then decided I needed to do the Intensives. I'm about half way thru the 3 year program.
I don't have any trees in the ground. I'd use collendars instead.
bwaynef
Masterpiece
You are pretty close to some very knowledgeable guys as far as bonsai is concerned (as well as carpentry, display, collecting, ...thinking outside the box.) If you haven't connected with the Ken Duncan & John Geneangel (apologies if I butchered that), both members here, you're doing yourself a disservice. I don't recall either of them using Lava, akadama, and pumice for soil though.
If you're willing to drive to Greenville, I've been working through them with my study group. (You won't go wrong ordering them for yourself though.)
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
I've also been a Boon student for about three years. I'm on a slow schedule - I can only make it out there once or twice a year, but I've had him in my garden on several occasions as well. Haven't met Adair there yet, but I'm sure our paths will cross at some point.
I have all my trees in Boon mix (or are we calling it Kepler mix now?) - tropicals, bald cypress, conifers, and deciduous. When you're one of Boon's students and you're learning his regimen it's built around performing an action and getting a predictable response. Growing your plants in turface or potting soil while following his program will yield less than optimal results. But be prepared for the commitment and additional care your trees will require. It's really more of a lifestyle choice than a hobby. I water up to 3 times a day during the hottest part of the year (which I think lasts from March until December in Houston) and fertilize with cakes and liquid fertilizer 2-3 times a week. I love it, so it's not a problem for me, but it makes family vacations an ordeal and, since there's not an app for it, some people might find that to be a problem.
Boon will tell you, and I think he's right, that there are very few trees in America that are past the development stage. Certainly all of my trees are not - to be sure some are farther along than others and I have some quite nice starter material - they are all project trees nonetheless. And I have too many projects, despite the fact that I've paired down over the years. I think a number like 25 or 30 would be optimal for someone like me with a day job, kids in the house and tax time looming. Which means I have twice as many projects as that which I could reasonably care for.
With that collection in Boon mix, I go through about 30-40 gallons of soil a year. I get together with friends and buy material by the pallet to keep costs under control. We just took delivery of a pallet of lava and a pallet of pumice earlier this year. 40 gallons of soil approximately equates to 4 30 pound bags of akadama at $30 a bag, 2 60 pound bags of lava at $15/ bag, 2 60 pound bags of pumice at $15/bag, and 2 24 oz bags of Hoffman charcoal at $5.50/bag - all sieved to remove the coarse and fine fraction. As an aside, turface costs $15/bag for a 50 lb bag at Ewing irrigation here in Houston.
That's about $200 per year or $17/month maximum in soil costs for Boon mix in my garden collection of about 50 trees. Most years it is less. Cheap considering how much I spend on trees, tools, and flying to California for intensives. As you get good development material and pot it up in boon mix, sieve the leftover material from repotting in subsequent years for your starters and for the material you are growing in the ground.
Scott
Last edited:
Eric Group
Masterpiece
I am fortunate enough to know Ken and John as well as Roy and a few others in their study group... I actually live less than a mile from Ken! They have been kind enough to help me out along the way and I am grateful for it! I have found them all to be talented, knowledgeable and really freindly...
What is the name of your study group and where do ya'll meet? I probably can't make a Greenville trip very often, but I have seen there is a Bonsai Nursery up that way (Green Thumb) and I am sure I will have to make a trip sometime!
bwaynef
Masterpiece
I couldn't come up with anything very exciting so its the Upstate SC Bonsai Study Group. Pretty catchy innit? 4th Saturday of the month @ 10 am @ Green Thumb Bonsai. PM me for more details.
I was the recipient of the unwarranted hospitality of John Quinn who chauffeured me to Ken's and Roy's a number of years ago. They're good guys (and extremely knowledgeable).
Do any of them use Lava/Akadama/Pumice? I believe they bring in artists every so often, so I wonder if a little judicious planning might net you some to try without having to pay (as much) shipping.
Eric Group
Masterpiece
I think Ken has a lot of everything! LOL. He also has so many trees he flies right through it I think...
I will have to try to make it out there for your meeting one day to say hello- would give me an excuse to go check out Green Thumb too! All I know about that place is what I have seen online... A bunch of field grown Maples which is kind of cool... Most the trees I see online are pretty much pre bonsai stock which is good- tht is all I can usually affor dot buy any way, and the seedlings seemed very fairly priced! I am interested in visiting them just to see what they have in person...
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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my thoughts and an answer to a question about single component media
About using a single component potting media. Granite grit comes to mind. Also my unfortunate experience with Turface. Particles of many media while they may look irregular, may be regular enough that with time they will settle, interlock and you will loose much of the air voids in the pot. This reduces the amount of oxygen and water available to the roots. A bad situation. Granite grit and Turface have an average shape that is different from each other. A 50:50 mix won't settle, collapsing the air voids. So the reason nobody recommends 100% anything is a matter of mechanical settling, and loss of air space in the root zone. The more varied the shapes in the mix, the less compacting and settling will occur. (Turface is no longer a component that I use, at all, for the same reasons others have quit using it)
The reason round hydroponic components like Aliflor (ceramic beads) and styrofoam beads are not used is because they are round they don't do any interlocking at all. No matter how well you tie the tree in the pot, the tree will keep shifting everytime the wind blows, or you move the tree. Breaking new root tips off each time. Bad for trees.
Have been a perpetual novice bonsai grower the first 25 to 30 years I have grown sticks in pots. The last 8 or 10 years I finally availed myself of the resources a local club can bring. So I am now finally becoming more than just a novice. Still learning after all these years. Yes, I have had a collection of sticks in pots for a full 40 years. Even the one tree that has been with me from the beginning is not 'show worthy', even though it has been in a pot for 40 years. But it is getting better.
I give lectures on raising orchids, and potting media is just as hotly debated in that circle as it is here. In my lectures I state; "You can grow orchids in anything, IF you understand how, and when to water them and how this affects your fertilizer". I think this applies to bonsai also. If you understand how potting media components change the way you need to water, fertilize and other aspects of care, you can get good results even from media mixes that others have poor results with. So "Everyone is right" if they understand how to use their chosen mix. Of course none of the posts have clarified how the choice of each particular blend changes watering and fertilizing over a different mix.
If I run out of Akadama at 2pm there is no way for me to get more to finish the day's repotting chores in less than a week, or more. For me Akadama is mail order or a 100+ mile drive round trip. Those who do carry it in stock at the 2 locations I am thinking of nearest me, only have it available irregularly. Often they have run out and are waiting for more to show up at their doors. Not only is Akadama more costly than most media, the availability for me at my location is erratic.
Sponge rock, perlite, granite grit, lava rock, pumice, hydro-stones, zeolite, all manner of hydroponics specialty media, charcoal, fir bark, mushroom compost, bagged organics of various types, oyster shell and more are all easily available, most are in stock at stores within 15 miles of where I live, my preferred bark for orchids is 35 miles from me. Ready availability is one key factor many of us feel is important in selecting our potting media of choice. I also have real composted fir bark, because with over 1000 orchids to repot every year, I save the "used for 2 years" bark to recycle as an organic component of my potting mixes.
I still have not settled on the perfect mix, what I use tends to be a mix of many of the components listed above. A blend of one of the Hydroponics store zeolites, with Cherry Stone brand of granite grit (nice dark purple-brown color) and a little lava rock is the base inorganic media for my pines, as the appearance is wonderful. For deciduous I add some composted, used on the orchids, fir bark. Generally never more than about 10% organics, even for the maples and such.
I have Akadama on hand, also Kanuma. I have not been satisfied with how my watering schedule and these materials interact. The few trees I put in straight Akadama (Toyo Nishiki quince, and a few others) have not had the root growth or health I expected. I can not possibly water more than once a day. Therefore I tend to use larger than ideal pots for shohin. The all akadama test trees seemed to be staying too wet? Time will tell. The experiments continue. Same problem with my Satsuki azalea. They seemed to stay too wet in straight Kanuma.
Best roots so far on my Satsuki has been a mix of Dry Stall (a fine grained 1/8th inch particle, pumice) and Perlite. Topped with a thin covering of long fiber New Zealand moss to hold the light material in place. This has given me my best results so far.
For pines, the granite, zeolite (Hygrowstone? need to check the brand name) lava, blend seems to be working well. Again, time will tell. Here much of my media mix is in step with the common theme, lava rock & pumice.
We all need to work out what works best in our climates and with our watering schedules and our fertilizer regimes. A 100% inorganic mix, when used by someone who only fertilizes with organic cake type fertilizers will not be 100% organic after the first 3 months, because as cakes break down, the particles seep into the mix. Two or 3 years of organic cake fertilizers the organic portion of that pot can get pretty high. So all these factors interact. One needs to experiment and see what works for themselves.
If you follow Boon's recommendations exactly, down to watering and fertilizing techniques, not just the potting mix, I would say I can guarantee pretty good results. Same with Walter Pall's techniques, including his watering twice a day, his fertilizer regime and his potting mix, one is guaranteed pretty good results. But if you deviate in your watering or fertilizing, neither system will give results as good as promised. All these factors interact. So I continue stumbling forward toward a good potting media with components I can get easily.
A media for growing out "sticks-in-pots" toward pre-bonsai state. I have been surprised how good just plain old perlite has been. Or its coarser brother, Sponge Rock. Really a pretty good media component. Cheap, inert, long lasting, readily available locally, and light weight for those big grow boxes. Blend with various amounts of recycled bonsai mix, or what ever, and a layer on top of moss to keep it from floating away and you have decent growing media.
Those are my thoughts. Great thread, and I do read, and enjoy the sarcasm, snide remarks and jabs you guys take at each other, it doesn't 'bother' me.
About using a single component potting media. Granite grit comes to mind. Also my unfortunate experience with Turface. Particles of many media while they may look irregular, may be regular enough that with time they will settle, interlock and you will loose much of the air voids in the pot. This reduces the amount of oxygen and water available to the roots. A bad situation. Granite grit and Turface have an average shape that is different from each other. A 50:50 mix won't settle, collapsing the air voids. So the reason nobody recommends 100% anything is a matter of mechanical settling, and loss of air space in the root zone. The more varied the shapes in the mix, the less compacting and settling will occur. (Turface is no longer a component that I use, at all, for the same reasons others have quit using it)
The reason round hydroponic components like Aliflor (ceramic beads) and styrofoam beads are not used is because they are round they don't do any interlocking at all. No matter how well you tie the tree in the pot, the tree will keep shifting everytime the wind blows, or you move the tree. Breaking new root tips off each time. Bad for trees.
Have been a perpetual novice bonsai grower the first 25 to 30 years I have grown sticks in pots. The last 8 or 10 years I finally availed myself of the resources a local club can bring. So I am now finally becoming more than just a novice. Still learning after all these years. Yes, I have had a collection of sticks in pots for a full 40 years. Even the one tree that has been with me from the beginning is not 'show worthy', even though it has been in a pot for 40 years. But it is getting better.
I give lectures on raising orchids, and potting media is just as hotly debated in that circle as it is here. In my lectures I state; "You can grow orchids in anything, IF you understand how, and when to water them and how this affects your fertilizer". I think this applies to bonsai also. If you understand how potting media components change the way you need to water, fertilize and other aspects of care, you can get good results even from media mixes that others have poor results with. So "Everyone is right" if they understand how to use their chosen mix. Of course none of the posts have clarified how the choice of each particular blend changes watering and fertilizing over a different mix.
If I run out of Akadama at 2pm there is no way for me to get more to finish the day's repotting chores in less than a week, or more. For me Akadama is mail order or a 100+ mile drive round trip. Those who do carry it in stock at the 2 locations I am thinking of nearest me, only have it available irregularly. Often they have run out and are waiting for more to show up at their doors. Not only is Akadama more costly than most media, the availability for me at my location is erratic.
Sponge rock, perlite, granite grit, lava rock, pumice, hydro-stones, zeolite, all manner of hydroponics specialty media, charcoal, fir bark, mushroom compost, bagged organics of various types, oyster shell and more are all easily available, most are in stock at stores within 15 miles of where I live, my preferred bark for orchids is 35 miles from me. Ready availability is one key factor many of us feel is important in selecting our potting media of choice. I also have real composted fir bark, because with over 1000 orchids to repot every year, I save the "used for 2 years" bark to recycle as an organic component of my potting mixes.
I still have not settled on the perfect mix, what I use tends to be a mix of many of the components listed above. A blend of one of the Hydroponics store zeolites, with Cherry Stone brand of granite grit (nice dark purple-brown color) and a little lava rock is the base inorganic media for my pines, as the appearance is wonderful. For deciduous I add some composted, used on the orchids, fir bark. Generally never more than about 10% organics, even for the maples and such.
I have Akadama on hand, also Kanuma. I have not been satisfied with how my watering schedule and these materials interact. The few trees I put in straight Akadama (Toyo Nishiki quince, and a few others) have not had the root growth or health I expected. I can not possibly water more than once a day. Therefore I tend to use larger than ideal pots for shohin. The all akadama test trees seemed to be staying too wet? Time will tell. The experiments continue. Same problem with my Satsuki azalea. They seemed to stay too wet in straight Kanuma.
Best roots so far on my Satsuki has been a mix of Dry Stall (a fine grained 1/8th inch particle, pumice) and Perlite. Topped with a thin covering of long fiber New Zealand moss to hold the light material in place. This has given me my best results so far.
For pines, the granite, zeolite (Hygrowstone? need to check the brand name) lava, blend seems to be working well. Again, time will tell. Here much of my media mix is in step with the common theme, lava rock & pumice.
We all need to work out what works best in our climates and with our watering schedules and our fertilizer regimes. A 100% inorganic mix, when used by someone who only fertilizes with organic cake type fertilizers will not be 100% organic after the first 3 months, because as cakes break down, the particles seep into the mix. Two or 3 years of organic cake fertilizers the organic portion of that pot can get pretty high. So all these factors interact. One needs to experiment and see what works for themselves.
If you follow Boon's recommendations exactly, down to watering and fertilizing techniques, not just the potting mix, I would say I can guarantee pretty good results. Same with Walter Pall's techniques, including his watering twice a day, his fertilizer regime and his potting mix, one is guaranteed pretty good results. But if you deviate in your watering or fertilizing, neither system will give results as good as promised. All these factors interact. So I continue stumbling forward toward a good potting media with components I can get easily.
A media for growing out "sticks-in-pots" toward pre-bonsai state. I have been surprised how good just plain old perlite has been. Or its coarser brother, Sponge Rock. Really a pretty good media component. Cheap, inert, long lasting, readily available locally, and light weight for those big grow boxes. Blend with various amounts of recycled bonsai mix, or what ever, and a layer on top of moss to keep it from floating away and you have decent growing media.
Those are my thoughts. Great thread, and I do read, and enjoy the sarcasm, snide remarks and jabs you guys take at each other, it doesn't 'bother' me.
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
I follow a "regime" that works in our climate based on Walter Palls - I use similar materials as what we use does they same thing and is readily available. It is of huge importance not to toss new people into a set of rules that may not apply to their product availability and most important their TIME ability. For example I follow Palls water schedule but it is automated as I cannot just stay here or find ANYONE reliable enough to do things proper when I am away. In Germany they have lump charcoal at nearly ever gas pump, I use a different substrate mix but of very similar qualities. Location, location, location...
Grimmy
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Thats it in a nutshell.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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I really should have stopped at just that paragraph. BUT, I get paid to stretch out a few simple ideas into a full one hour lecture!
nip
Yamadori
I second perlite as an excellent development medium for the same reasons mentioned by Leo, in ground or pot. If you let someone convince you that akadama is necessary for premium tree growth, I have a few bridges and ocean front property in Arizona that I want to sell you.
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