Best soil for developing trees?

[Vance Wood]

yes this is a very good important question because despite what the akadama naysayers may say it is a one-of-a-kind product. I feel like the most important characteristics of akadama that I personally would want to mimic is the way it breaks down over time, and they way it holds moisture so well even prior to breaking down. I'm not as concerned about its CEC property. Did I mention its also lightweight?
Decomposed granite may offer the breaking down characteristic but it is ohh soo heavy. Moisture can be achieved with quite a few different components so not as concerned. I probably would consider a mix of 1/8"-1/4" DG, pumice, and fir bark. Putting a top dressing on trees that needed it.

Come on Nathan, you live in Alabama. What kind of winter do you have down there? If you put Akadama in my climate you will be lucky to have a soil mix survive three seasons, if Akadama were the primary element. When you grow mostly conifers that's not good enough infact it is downright dangerous.

 

[Vance Wood]

Im going to have to defend Darthfunkel here and say if there had to be one soil and one soil only. Granted it will work better for some than others. It would probably have to be mix of akadama, pumice, and lava(i hesitate on this one because of what i stated earlier.) The ratios are up to you based on your needs. Drainage layers and top dressings are welcome. Fertilizing will obviously be necessary

Darthfunkle??? that's a knee slapping, trousing peeing, belly laughing, hoot. You deserve the Yuk it up laugh out loud award for the year on that one.

 

[Smoke]

Come on Nathan, you live in Alabama. What kind of winter do you have down there? If you put Akadama in my climate you will be lucky to have a soil mix survive three seasons, if Akadama were the primary element. When you grow mostly conifers that's no good enough infact it is downright dangerous.

I'll bet he is closer to alhambra than Alabama... Lol

 

[Smoke]

Darthfunkle??? that's a knee slapping, trousing peeing, belly laughing, hoot. You deserve the Yuk it up laugh out loud award for the year on that one.

Is that the same guy that sang sounds of silence?

 

[nathanbs]

Come on Nathan, you live in Alabama. What kind of winter do you have down there? If you put Akadama in my climate you will be lucky to have a soil mix survive three seasons, if Akadama were the primary element. When you grow mostly conifers that's not good enough infact it is downright dangerous.

Im in Altadena, CA the other place that starts with an "A". Out of curiosity I want to know what is more extreme in one direction or another about Alabama's weather compared to Japan where they use akadama as a component to trees that often times dont get repotted for a decade or two?

 

[nathanbs]

I'll bet he is closer to alhambra than Alabama... Lol

Im sitting in my office in Alhambra as I type

 

[markyscott]

For those of you who use one of the "standard" akadama/pumice/lava mixes - if akadama were to become completely unavailable (and it very well could happen someday), how would you change your mix? Would you replace the akadama with some other component, and if so, what? Or would you make a larger change to your soil mixture?

Chris

Akadama is an andosol - a volcanic soil. These kind of soils are all over the western US and are not unique to Japan. It needs to be fairly wet conditions and the right pH to create the Al-humate complexes Al speaks of, but I think there are quite large areas of the west that could contain a suitable replacement. I'm waiting on an enterprising individual ...

Scott

 

[nathanbs]

Is there a better mix for extremely hot weather? AKADAMA/PUMICE/LAVA
Is there a better mix for extremely dry weather? AKADAMA/PUMICE/LAVA
Is there a better mix for extremely cold weather?AKADAMA/PUMICE/LAVA
Is there a better mix for extremely wet weather?AKADAMA/PUMICE/LAVA

This is by no means exact but it gives you an idea how these three components once understood can be adjusted to work for you

 

[barrosinc]

Is there a better mix for extremely hot weather? AKADAMA/PUMICE/LAVA
Is there a better mix for extremely dry weather? AKADAMA/PUMICE/LAVA
Is there a better mix for extremely cold weather?AKADAMA/PUMICE/LAVA
Is there a better mix for extremely wet weather?AKADAMA/PUMICE/LAVA

This is by no means exact but it gives you an idea how these three components once understood can be adjusted to work for you

So Akadama to retain water, Pumice to help drainage, and Lava... (?)

Something like that?

 

[coh]

Akadama is an andosol - a volcanic soil. These kind of soils are all over the western US and are not unique to Japan. It needs to be fairly wet conditions and the right pH to create the Al-humate complexes Al speaks of, but I think there are quite large areas of the west that could contain a suitable replacement. I'm waiting on an enterprising individual ...

Scott

Fair enough...but what if all the akadama disappeared tomorrow? What would you do until this hypothesized U.S.-based replacement became available to you?

Chris

 

[Vance Wood]

Is that the same guy that sang sounds of silence?

I think it might have been him and Saul Pieman. Garmen and Sighphunkle.

 

[nathanbs]

So Akadama to retain water, Pumice to help drainage, and Lava... (?)

Something like that?

At this point Im not exactly sure how the lava differentiates itself from akadama and pumice, honestly im starting to do without and simply use akadama and pumice. It definitely holds water but arguably not in a way thats usable by the roots, so perhaps it holds water for the akadama and pumice to absorb off of it as a sort of back up water supply. There has been some pics of very fine roots growing into the pores of lava and im curious if this is due to moisture or nutrients trapped in the pockets

 

[Darth Tanuki]

I think it might have been him and Saul Pieman. Garmen and Sighphunkle.

"Leaves That Are Green" by Simon and Darthfunkel

I was twenty-one years when I wrote this song.
I'm twenty-two now but I won't be for long
Time hurries on.
And the leaves that are green turn to brown,
And they wither with the wind,
And the akadama crumbles in your hand.

Once my heart was filled with the love of a girl.
I held her close, but she faded in the night
Like a poem I meant to write.
And the leaves that are green turn to brown,
And they wither with the wind,
And the akadama crumbles in your hand.

I threw a pebble in a brook
And watched the ripples run away
And they never made a sound.
And the leaves that are green turned to brown,
And they wither with the wind,
And the akadama crumbles in your hand.

Hello, Hello, Hello, Good-bye,
Good-bye, Good-bye, Good-bye,
That's all there is.
And the leaves that are green turned to brown,
And they wither with the wind,
And the akadama crumbles in your hand.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

The quickest way to detrimentally influence young bonsai enthusiasts like myself is to hike your leg and 'shower' us with arrogance. Fortunately, no brilliant individual informed me when I was 12 that my attempt to grow bonsai without akadama was futile. Not everyone lives on the Dark Star and can easily access or afford to pot dozens of trees with your mix, especially young people. No one disputes the validity of akadama, but to insist it required to grow premium trees is delusional.
I will try to remember to take pictures next time I repot solely for the purpose of disputing a subjective topic, let me make a note to myself on the back of my still perfect NCAA bracket.

WRONG! Why do you think so many akadama users get so fired up on this thread? Because many DO dispute its validity in spite of decades of success and puzzlingly seem to want to close the door to even trying it. And believe it or not, premium trees are scarce without the use of akadama. I have given many younger bonsai enthusiasts my soil mix so that they continue in the hobby, and not get frustrated and quit. This being the case in spite of the loss of the Death Star and being a starving post rebellion quadriplegic vet.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

First of all you come at this particular question from the view point that I am a know-it-all that will not change my mind. That is not true and I am mildly offended by it. Secondly the basic question: I am not saying that there is not a singularly superior mix for all climates; just that your assessment that it must contain Akadama to be any good at all. In other words if there is a singularly superior mix ----it ain't yours.

You continue to contradict yourself in even short paragraphs. Are you a know it all or not?

 

[Darth Tanuki]

Come on Nathan, you live in Alabama. What kind of winter do you have down there? If you put Akadama in my climate you will be lucky to have a soil mix survive three seasons, if Akadama were the primary element. When you grow mostly conifers that's not good enough infact it is downright dangerous.

If you used more than 1/3 akadama in your mix with conifers, no wonder you had bad results! Also, you do need to actually do some rootwork from time to time. Most conifers in god's mix need to be repotted every 2-3 years.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

Akadama is an andosol - a volcanic soil. These kind of soils are all over the western US and are not unique to Japan. It needs to be fairly wet conditions and the right pH to create the Al-humate complexes Al speaks of, but I think there are quite large areas of the west that could contain a suitable replacement. I'm waiting on an enterprising individual ...

Scott

This is exactly what I would do if akadama were to become unavailable - find a way to obtain it here. It is not magical because it comes from Japan - they just discovered this kind of soil works well for bonsai.

 

[sikadelic]

my still perfect NCAA bracket.

Finally, I can call bullshit on something

 

[nip]

WRONG! Why do you think so many akadama users get so fired up on this thread? Because many DO dispute its validity in spite of decades of success and puzzlingly seem to want to close the door to even trying it. And believe it or not, premium trees are scarce without the use of akadama. I have given many younger bonsai enthusiasts my soil mix so that they continue in the hobby, and not get frustrated and quit. This being the case in spite of the loss of the Death Star and being a starving post rebellion quadriplegic vet.

You've made it very apparent that anyone opposing you is WRONG, so perhaps you have more in common with youths than I thought. How bout shipping some of your nectar of the gods down to me while you're handing it out, otherwise I may as well burn my trees based on your logic.

 

[Eric Group]

Rmj after 3 yrs in 70 percent granite grit and 30 percent uncomposted bark chunks. Premium? Dunno but pretty good for 2 soil components that are not well thought of by many.

For bulk soil for developing stock I plan on using perlite and bark this year, Brent from evergreen has said here before it works well for him. If I do get a bulk order of pumice I'll use that in place of perlite.

The pic is a snapshot from an old thread of mine.

I am liking all the experiences I hear of people using bark so effectively... That is a readily available ingredient for me! I had never thought of using it as such a substantial portion of the mix for rooting cuttings, or for seedlings and developing trees...

This is the kind of stuff I was interested in learning when I started the thread- not so much what people use for a Bonsai mix, but what they use for bigger bulk work- bunches of seedlings, cuttings, air layers after they are cut off of the parent tree... I am horribly addicted to propagation and my tree numbers are growing, I simply cannot afford a good loose bonsai mix with all these fancy ingredients for dozens of seedlings, cuttings...

What a load of knowledge we have had dropped on us in this thread! I was trying to find the post where someone listed the dry stall dealers in my area to thank the person who posted it, but I cannot find it! Anyway, thanks for that! I called a feed and tack store up the road and they are getting a load of dry stall in Monday! Should save me a ton vs paying shipping! I have used pumice and think it is fantastic, pretty excited to find a local carrier! Anybody in the area who needs some, look up the Feed and tack store out in Elgin...