What's it like to attend an Intensive program?

I hijacked your thread because I saw poor quality work, and I knew you were capable of doing better. I called you on it. You responded with better work!

You said yourself that you didn't disagree with anything I said, you just resented I said it!

I'll have to say if you took that attitude to Boon's place, you'd be very unhappy.

It wasn't five minutes into the first work session I got dressed down for cutting wire off. There I was, a rookie, getting "Sgt. Carter'ed", and all the other students, were looking away, keeping their heads down, knowing what I was going thru. Boon knows I'm eager to learn about bonsai, he knew I'd make this mistake, virtually everyone does!

But if you can't take criticism, don't go to Boon's! He's a perfectionist!

Not that I needed or wanted your criticism, understanding that I told you at the beginning I was not finished, you continued. It really just goes to show me just how low the esteem you hold me in is and, probably along with a lot of other people on this forum who are not students of Boon.

There is not doubt Boon knows what he is doing and teaches well but he has a flaw. Earlier I made the Son's of Thunder reference. Do you have any idea where that title originally came from, and the story behind it? You sir are an elitist, and you SOB's (most of you not all of you) have no fears in believing that you have been elevated to Bonsai demigods.

If you had thought of me as a colleague, or even a friend it would have been better to have approached me with a PM. rather than trying to embarrass me publicly and then---- admit to hijacking the thread. We could have discussed this privately and I could have let you know that I only had a limited supply of wire at hand and knew I was going to have to double up.

As to going to Boon's I am glad you told me he is a perfectionist. My father was a perfectionist and he made my early life a living hell. I certainly would not pay money, I would have to sell some of my trees to raise, in order to do this only to find myself faced by someone who thinks it's his place to humiliate me in front of others. I had my share of that crap in the Army as well.
 
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I remembered some other things I've learned at the Intensives:

Grafting!

Late winter is the best time to do regular scion grafts. So we all practice grafting at the winter Intensive. It's one of those things that's very visual so I'll not go into extreme detail here, but there are several types of grafts that come in handy. Personally, I've gotten rather adept at doing approach grafts on JBP. Regular scion grafts are trickier and have lower success rates, so I'll try to do an approach graft if possible. Several of my trees at home have extended branches that I'm letting grow out, not as sacrifices, but for approach grafting.

Boon will pick a tree and have us put on scion grafts. That's where you cut a twig off the tree, prepare the twig by making cuts on opposite sides exposing the cambium, then cutting a slot into the host tree, inserting the scion so that the cambium layers match up, securing the cut closed, putting a little plastic bag over the scion to keep it humid, inserting a bit of wet spaghnum moss, and tieing it all up! There you have scion grafting all in one run-on sentence! Each of us puts on a couple grafts, then we write our names on a piece of tape, and stick it on the bag. Next time we come back, we check to see of our grafts have taken! My scion grafts are running at about 33%. I'm not very good at it yet. I should be batting around 50%. My approach grafts are at about 90 to 95%. I've only lost one.

Then there's thread grafts. Used for deciduous trees. Grow out a long whip, drill a hole through the tree, slip the whip thru the hole. Sounds easy enough, right? Problem is, the buds at the terminal stick out wider than the stem. They're easy to damage when they're being pushed thru the hole. So you have to drill a wider hole than you'd really like. Which means that once you get it positioned you'll find the new branch is thinner than the hole you drilled. So you have to fill the hole up a bit with a toothpick, piece of chopstick, or best of all a piece of wood you can cut from the host tree. A trimmed branch. Expose the cambium on the new branch, insert the filler piece to make sure it stays snug, and cover the whole mess, and the backside with cut paste. It's often a good idea to have put some wire on the back side to help bend the branch to where it runs thru the trunk. I don't do much deciduous, so I've never done a thread graft. But I've watched it done.

Now, I know what some of you are thinking: grafting! That's cheating! Well... yes and no. It's kinda like playing offensive line in football. It's said that there's "holding" on every play. Sometimes you get caught! Well, many of the great trees in Japan have been grafted at one time or another. It just they were done so long ago, you can't tell.

I have found that being able to graft has made it easier to design bonsai. Instead having to settle for a poor front because there's no #1 branch, if I can bend another branch around and graft it into place, well, problem solved! Branch won't back bud after several attenpts? Graft!

Grafting is not my first choice, but it's a viable choice. And learning grafting skills has elevated my bonsai to a higher level.

If I remember other things I forgot to mention, I'll add 'em!
When he wants to change the foliage of a tree, say, from a Western Juniper with it's blue foliage to Kishu with it's bright green, Boon uses a special graft. It double locks together. Makes for a stronger branch. But does leave a bit of a bulge when healed.
 
Lol.... I think I'm being misunderstood, my apologies... I was trying to be conversational not controversial. I'm sorry if it came off that way... I don't resent Boon... I admire him and am a fan of his work. I think it a great privileged that Adair is sharing so candidly. I was responding candidly, and not in a way meant to incite any feelings that I was making a critical comment of Boon's desire to work with 'blank canvases'. I was speaking about how someone like myself, would perceive that someone like myself or Adair would be considered a less desirable student. Which is what Adair's conversational comment brought to my mind. Speaking conversationally, as equals, with every tool of respect I know, has fallen short of the mark. Again, my apologies.

It's difficult to take a conversational tone in a forum when everyone will read it in their own voicing. Just as Vance has taken some umbrage with the conversational voicing that Adair was trying to use with him. For my part I didn't take it as insulting, or critical, but as one might if we were all at a convention having way to many drinks (which I adore), and having a great time. I think we have to have an understanding that I regard every person here with respect and trust.... I think of us all as passionate and invested pursuers of this art. I would not wish my conversational style to be misconstrued.

For any fall in anyone's estimation I have suffered in my lack of clarity, I am most sorry of all.

Let me say without fear of misunderstanding that the intimacy of what Adair is sharing is a delight to me... I don't have to take it as gospel... or even my own... but my appreciation for what he's giving to everyone here is without limit. Adair's generosity of spirit and warmth come out loud and clear in this thread.

I will be more careful. :)

With all the kindheartedness I possess,

Victrinia
 
One more bit of clarity.... I was NOT trying to imply Boon is elitist... that there are students Boon teaches who are, it isn't a reflection on him to me so much as on their own lack of personal development. That's what I meant by the YOU in the misunderstood comment. :cool:

Not every student of any teacher is a great reflection of the master. Adair is... and has done more to salve my thoughts about what must happen in Boon's classes than can be imagined.

That is all..... lol

V
 
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I really don't know what causes all these arguments on this forum, maybe its being too sensitive, or poor communication, or huge egos getting in the way, but can we have a "Challenge" section where people with differences in technique can each post pictures of trees showing what they are talking about including finished, or as close to it as possible, trees. Then everyone can vote on what looks better to them and the argument can just end so it doesn't become the focal point of useful threads. That would be awesome as a beginner for so many reasons.
 
Lol.... I think I'm being misunderstood, my apologies... I was trying to be conversational not controversial. I'm sorry if it came off that way... I don't resent Boon... I admire him and am a fan of his work. I think it a great privileged that Adair is sharing so candidly. I was responding candidly, and not in a way meant to incite any feelings that I was making a critical comment of Boon's desire to work with 'blank canvases'. I was speaking about how someone like myself, would perceive that someone like myself or Adair would be considered a less desirable student. Which is what Adair's conversational comment brought to my mind. Speaking conversationally, as equals, with every tool of respect I know, has fallen short of the mark. Again, my apologies.

It's difficult to take a conversational tone in a forum when everyone will read it in their own voicing. Just as Vance has taken some umbrage with the conversational voicing that Adair was trying to use with him. For my part I didn't take it as insulting, or critical, but as one might if we were all at a convention having way to many drinks (which I adore), and having a great time. I think we have to have an understanding that I regard every person here with respect and trust.... I think of us all as passionate and invested pursuers of this art. I would not wish my conversational style to be misconstrued.

For any fall in anyone's estimation I have suffered in my lack of clarity, I am most sorry of all.

Let me say without fear of misunderstanding that the intimacy of what Adair is sharing is a delight to me... I don't have to take it as gospel... or even my own... but my appreciation for what he's giving to everyone here is without limit. Adair's generosity of spirit and warmth come out loud and clear in this thread.

I will be more careful. :)

With all the kindheartedness I possess,

Victrinia

Vic no need t apologize, I did not mean to hurt your feelings if I did. It's just I hold you above most on this site and when you post something its always worth reading. Your right its hard to sometimes convey what we mean on a form vs a conversation. :)
 
Vance, I have no idea what "Sons of Thunder" is referring to. Sorry. It's completely over my head.

You used the term "hijack the thread" I honestly did not want to hijack the thread, and if you go back, I stated that I'd start THIS thread rather than discuss Boon on your thread. I really tried, several times to redirect the discussion towards your mugo, and away from where I obtained my training.

Again, no where have I suggested that you go to Boon's. I've even told you that I doubt you'd like it! Why do you persist in this?

Limited supply of wire? You told me you had tons of aluminum on hand, so you didn't want to buy copper because you had so much aluminum.

Really, Vance, you're just digging a deeper and deeper hole in the ground.

I'm an elitist. Really? Sure, I paid good money to go to California to study with Boon. I would think that an elitist would then try to keep that information to himself, not share with anyone else. Not at all! I'm sharing it anyone who is willing to listen! Tell me, how is that elitist?

The information I'm sharing I got from Boon. It's good stuff. I've said before that had I gone to Ryan's, I'd be sharing that stuff. It's good stuff, too.

Let's pretend for a moment that I've been going to Ryan's classes and not Boon's. And in this and your thread I had said, things like "Ryan says", "at Ryan's I learned the best way to do...", or "Ryan teaches that...", etc. Would you have reacted the same way? Or is your animosity directed to me because it's Boon who is my sensei? Because, you know, Boon's been doing this longer than Ryan has, so there are more of his students active in the bonsai world today. Sure, the list of Ryan's students will grow, and their voices will be heard.

But Boon was the first former apprentice that I know of to return to the US and try to replicate the training that he was able to obtain in Japan for us ordinary folk. I think we are fortunate to have people like him and Ryan who actually "walked the walk" in Japan, and are willing to teach us the secrets the Japanese have held to themselves for so long.

I'm sorry you may have had run ins with others who have studied with Boon. That's certainly not Boon's fault. Nor mine. I think I've been respectful of you. I haven't called you any names. Like you did me, and tried to put words in my mouth. You may have edited that post out once I asked you not to use profane language. Thank you if you did. I have just called you out on errors you state about JBP. And I pointed out ways I thought would help you design that tree the way you wanted. I said nothing about the actual styling except that I thought the tree leaned towards the back. Your new design has it more forward. I said copper would make it easier to stay bent into the shape you wanted bend. You added additional aluminum. That works, too.

As to should I have PMed you? Maybe. You could have PMed me, too. You didn't. I helped you get on BSG. Did you ask for my advice? No. I've told you I won't give you any more since you don't want it. In return, I respectfully ask that you remain silent about JBP. Fair? And, since you've never met him, I think it's fair to ask that you stop making derogatory comments about Boon.
 
Vance, I have no idea what "Sons of Thunder" is referring to. Sorry. It's completely over my head.

Biblical reference. Perhaps a warning that he's about to rain fire and brimstone on all of Boon's students. Who knows.

Scott
 
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Vic, your insight is always welcome!
 
More on the Intensives:

I'll be honest here, until I went to Boon's garden I had never seen trees of such quality. The level of refinement is astounding. My previous show experience had been the Atlanta Bonsai Society show. My old friend, Larry Williams was the founder, and he produced the most highly refined trees I had ever seen. He was into shohin. That happens as you get older. I'm just now starting into the study of shohin. I was early in my study of bonsai when I knew Larry. And I had not had enough experience to really understand what Larry had achieved with his shohin. OH! I wish I could see them now!

Going there the first time was like going to the Louvre in Paris! Too much to see! Each bench holds so many trees, each one better than any tree I had ever seen before. Each tree was better than the one I had just past! Overwhelming!

And then it hit me: I don't know how to produce trees like this! Here are dozens, no, hundreds of trees that are better than any tree I'd ever seen before. I don't know how to get a tree to look like this! And then when the realization came that I was finally going to learn how to create THESE trees, it invigorated my soul. This place is Mecca for anyone who loves bonsai!

As I complete the Intensive program, I get little insights as to what makes a great bonsai. I'm sure there will be more little insights to come. The complete Intensive program is 30 days of instruction. Compared with Ryan's 7 years with Kimura, it's nothing.

But as I gather these little insights, I think to myself, "I wish I had known this years ago!"

And, I decided that the techniques Boon teaches shouldn't be secret. Every bonsai artist needs these tools. Boon encourages us to share his techniques. So, I worked it out with Steve at Plant City Bonsai that I would give a class when I return from each Intensive to share what I've learned. I try to do it much the same way. With a video if I have one, some handouts from Boon, and physical work time. True, we don't work with the same level material as Boon has, but they get the same techniques.

And so, my workshop students learn the same things I'm learning. My workshops are getting more popular as word has spread, sometimes I have to give two days of classes.

And I try to share what I know on this and other bonsai sites. I feel my core competency is JBP, so I always try to contribute something on the JBP threads. Species I have no experience in, I'll stay silent. I'm pretty good with zelkova, I will post on those threads.

I have one year left before "graduation", but there's no way I'll learn all I want to know in that little amount of time.
 
If new techniques are the only ones that worked, would there be ancient bonsai?

If Vance Wood didn't exist, neither would the best thread here. Thank you Al.! And there would be a lot of Mugo fire wood.

Boon is clearly a number one player in advancing American Bonsai. Which, hands down, ( palms up ) is needed.

Adair shares freely. Many excellent reads and trees.

Blake is twenty something, and correct. Sift through the BS and grow up.

Our trees would die if we read them these arguments.

Cheers Vic. Lets have that drink virtually!

To all!

Sorce
 
Adair - Thanks for a great thread. Could you speak a little bit to building primary/secondary branches for JBP? Do you use spring or summer candles? How to control their length? How to make them into bud filled branches right where you want them?
 
Adair,

again thank you.

So you guys are essentially, Traditionalists, and probably don't observe nature [ trees in nature - draw/study or photo or otherwise.]
Essentially becoming Mannerists, more and more.
I am putting it in art terms, so it easier to understand where the arguments are coming from.
You would be Followers of Boon [ FOBs] not SOBs.

Walnut oil is a drying oil, used alongside with human skin oil [ also has a % of Linolenic oil, same as walnut oil, plus other oils ] on Scholar stones.
Wonder what happens with time, watering, soil acids etc on the exterior of the pot, which is supposed to be slightly porous, if stoneware.

When going to a teacher, the art students are advised to forget all they know to cut down on abrasions and allow the mind to absorb. You can always rotate the information back at your apartment.

We frequently tip the pots to allow the free inorganic material to fall off and then remix compost with the material to replace on the soil. Something that happened naturally, and didn't know that there was a word for it. Ha ha.

We use compost sprinkled on the soil's surface. It is absorbed in a week or so.
BUT as I said before our soil is more actively worked by bugs etc. So our results differ to the Japanese.

It is difficult, if not confusing to take the stands on Bonsai forms seriously, Naturalism, Realism or Mannerism, as the trees keep on growing and changing, and when the masters die, their work is weighed and then everyone begins to forget who they were.
I noted Mr. Naka's fall from grace, and what the books used to say about him, yet Raphael/Micheangelo/ Da vinci live on, and they did not know all painting was ??????
A hobby, trying to be.

The true value of New World Bonsai seems to be going the same way as the Japanese present it,
A Master Gardener, is paid to mind the trees of the Wealthy [ their playthings ], good employment technique.
Good Day
Anthony [ remember I am 1/4 Chinese, the above is a reality for Chinese folk,$$$$]
 
Biblical reference. Perhaps a warning that he's about to rain fire and brimstone on all of Boon's students. Who knows.

Scott

Goes to show how a little Biblical knowledge can be taken out of context and screwed into the ground backwards. The Sons of Thunder were Jesus' disciples who Jesus sent forth in different parts of Israel ---once. He indowed them with his powers to heal and other things, like fishes and loaves. When they came back and discussed how things went several of them said that they wanted to call down judgement on those who did not listen to them. That's when Jesus called them the Sons of Thunder. If you can't put together the metaphore you are not trying.
 
Goes to show how a little Biblical knowledge can be taken out of context and screwed into the ground backwards. The Sons of Thunder were Jesus' disciples who Jesus sent forth in different parts of Israel ---once. He indowed them with his powers to heal and other things, like fishes and loaves. When they came back and discussed how things went several of them said that they wanted to call down judgement on those who did not listen to them. That's when Jesus called them the Sons of Thunder. If you can't put together the metaphore you are not trying.

Actually, he only nicknamed two of them the "Sons of Thunder", both James and John, who were brothers and were fishermen with Simon, whom Jesus renamed Peter. There is really not much reference as to why he gave them this nickname, there are many good discussions in various forums that debate this topic and are quite interesting to read.

He indowed them with his powers to heal and other things, like fishes and loaves.

Strange, he endowed them with fish and loaves?
 
Adair - Thanks for a great thread. Could you speak a little bit to building primary/secondary branches for JBP? Do you use spring or summer candles? How to control their length? How to make them into bud filled branches right where you want them?

If I understand the question, you're asking about how to build ramification right? That's done by decandling, mostly. When we decandle the spring candle, we cut it off. New buds form at the base of where the spring candle was, and grow out. They will be shorter in length. Where the spring candle might have been 4 inches long, the summer candles would probably be only one or one and a half inches long. And instead of one long shoot, we would have two shorter shoots.

Let's say we had a little branch, with two side branches. With a single bud on each. We have a right branch, a left branch and a terminal. We have three buds, 3 candles grow out in the spring. In the summer, we cut them off. Over the summer, new adventitious buds form, and grow. For simplicity, let's say each produces two summer shoots. Now, we have a branch with 6 twigs. Each side branch now has a fork on the end with 2 shoots, and the terminal has two shoots.

Do it again, next year, and there'd be 12.

That's the basic approach. Each year, you double the number of terminal tips on your tree.

This works really well once the tree has been trained to the point you want to begin refinement, or is in the process of being refined, or is a finished tree that is being maintained.

The decandling technique is very reliable if the tree is strong and healthy. That is why it is the preferred method.

Combining decandling and wiring the branch out will expose the older wood to the sun, which encourages the tree to back bud, using old dormant adventitious buds. Unfortunately, we can not rely on this to happen, and if it does, it may not occur where we want them, or rather, where we need them. If we get them, it's a happy occurrence!

Let's speak to that, for a moment: Usually, if we get a back bud on a branch, it usually grows from the top of the base of a V where two horizontal branches are. You remember how we discussed "bud selection" before? Choosing two horizontal buds on JBP? So, now, we have a third bud growing up at the base of the V formed by two other branches. Do you keep it? Or remove it? Probably keep it! Especially if it is back towards the trunk.

In an ideal branch, we would like to have one of these little "top branches" about every third V. (Intersection) When they get big enough, they are wired to follow the main branch they emanated from, and they serve to add height to the branch pad.

At some point, even with annual decandling, every branch will eventually grow too long for the tree. It will need to be cut back. These "Top Branches" are ideal places to cut back to. And then they become the new branch.

Again, this is consistent with the concept we discussed with the deciduous tree technique of using the top bud and bending it down. Here, we cut back to the Top Branch, and wire it down to shorten the overgrown main branch.

It's a constant cycle of growth and cutting back.

Unfortunately, dormant adventitious buds only exist on the old wood where the base of a candle used to be. If in the past, the tree grew very quickly, and had long internodes, there will be long gaps between adventitious buds. While the old wood is still covered with smooth grey bark, you can see where the candle bases used to be. Once the bark starts to get flaky, you can't. Once you learn to recognize the old growth pattern, you can use it to your advantage. Choose a branch that had been grown out more slowly, as it will have had more internodes, and thus is more likely to backbud. One that grew a foot it's first year, won't have any adventitious buds within that foot! Only needle buds.

You can work with needle buds. They're weaker and much less reliable. But if you get one, you can use it.

I'll discuss those next post.
 
Let's say we had a little branch, with two side branches. With a single bud on each. We have a right branch, a left branch and a terminal. We have three buds, 3 candles grow out in the spring. In the summer, we cut them off. Over the summer, new adventitious buds form, and grow. For simplicity, let's say each produces two summer shoots. Now, we have a branch with 6 twigs. Each side branch now has a fork on the end with 2 shoots, and the terminal has two shoots.

In my mind, the first thing that should have been done was to remove the center terminal bud...leaving only two instead of the chicken feet/trident (which I hate - sorry).
 
In my mind, the first thing that should have been done was to remove the center terminal bud...leaving only two instead of the chicken feet/trident (which I hate - sorry).

Buds are thinned to two in the fall during needle pulling. In the summer you let all the shoots grow. I have as many as five shoots where I decandled in July.

Scott
 
In my mind, the first thing that should have been done was to remove the center terminal bud...leaving only two instead of the chicken feet/trident (which I hate - sorry).

Sorry, Dario! You're absolutely right! I don't mean a trident where all three twigs are based the same point! (Here is a perfect example of the weakness of my writing!)

No, I'm trying to describe a branch, maybe 4 inches long from the trunk. About 2 inches out, there's a right branch. The main line continues on ahead. Then about an inch later, there's a left branch. And then the terminal tip.

Go back and look at "Figure 15". Something like that is what I had in mind!
 
I admire adairs approach, when you put yourself in the hands of your teacher you will learn his approach, which after it sinks in will develop into part of your approach.

While I'm inexperienced in bonsai, I have studied and admired Japanese woodworking. It is similar in that students will work under their master for years before they can even graduate to moderately difficult tasks. A student's qualifications for study are both humility and enthusiasm, everything else can be built if those two things are there.
 
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