Pinching Vance Wood: the challenge

[leatherback]

Don't be too jealous, just a couple of guys sitting at a big table working on a bunch of trees.

Yeah, but the trees seem worth the effort to go and look at. Considering the guy who created them is there, would be abonus too. Always something to learn from people doing this for 30+ years, good or bad ..

 

[leatherback]

but the comparatively pale foliage indicates mites, too much water, or too little light:

I have a juniper with foliage like that in the lower canopy. Trimmed out 1/3 of the foliage in the upper canopy to let more light come in. Can such foliage still be safed,, or would it be too late, in your opinion?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I have a juniper with foliage like that in the lower canopy. Trimmed out 1/3 of the foliage in the upper canopy to let more light come in. Can such foliage still be safed,, or would it be too late, in your opinion?

Once foliage turns yellow, it's done. Healthy trees will shed it and replace it with new.

 

[wlambeth]

Mugos do not do well in zone 7 or higher in the SE...I've never seen one in the greater Atlanta area (zone 7) that looked like it was thriving. Most mugos landscape trees are dead within 3 to 4 years

Mugos and other white pines do not live in new Orleans (zone 9) for more than two years in a pot. Not sure if they would survive longer in the ground, but its due to the lack of sustained winter and extreme heat. My guess it is also due to the extreme humidity. Nevertheless, it is too bad for us that they don't survive here as they make beautiful bonsai.

 

[Txhorticulture]

Mugos and other white pines do not live in new Orleans (zone 9) for more than two years in a pot. Not sure if they would survive longer in the ground, but its due to the lack of sustained winter and extreme heat. My guess it is also due to the extreme humidity.

I'm sure you're guess is correct. Mugo is an alpine plant. High elevation. used to cool summers and low humidity . But mugo isn't a white pine. White pines are in subgenus strobus.

 

[0soyoung]

OK I'm jumping in on this only to make a botanical and somewhat pedantic point. Those little brown things are not FLOWERS they are pollen cones. Conifers are gymnosperms they are not flowering plants. Flowering plants are angiosperms. Lol. Now continue your discussion

Right you are. Angiosperms = flowering plants.
Continuing the pedantry, they are 'strobili'. Cones are the female parts (of conifers, which are gymnosperms).

 

[0soyoung]

I'm sure you're guess is correct. Mugo is an alpine plant. High elevation. used to cool summers and low humidity . But mugo isn't a white pine. White pines are in subgenus strobus.

Yes. And, among other attributes, they are called 'white' because there is one or more white lines/stripes on (the underside of) each needle. IIRC, all white pines have 5 needles per fascicle.

 

[Paradox]

Mugos do not do well in zone 7 or higher in the SE...I've never seen one in the greater Atlanta area (zone 7) that looked like it was thriving. Most mugos landscape trees are dead within 3 to 4 years

I think the hours above 90F (where metabolic consumption exceeds the photosynthetic input) may be the key.

I beg to differ. I am in zone 7b and we do get days at a time with heat over 90. I have one mugo that I have kept alive for 4 years and repotted now 3x and it is fine. I have others that I have had for less time that also dont seem to mind. Granted I am not SE and being near the ocean where temps are more moderated might be a factor. I have recorded temps in my back yard over 100 deg F several days in a row and the mugo and scots pine didnt mind.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

repotting 3 times in 4 years?

 

[Paradox]

repotting 3 times in 4 years?

Yea it was the 3rd tree I ever purchased so I made some mistakes with it, but it survived despite me.
The first time I repotted it, I put it into a regular shaped plant pot which I didnt like. It survived the butcher job I did to its roots and it was repotted in May not after Fathers Day as Vance suggests.
I repotted it the next year (August) into a better shaped training pot, but it was a sand and gravel mix which Ive since learned stays too damn wet.
I repotted it again 2 years later (this past July 4 or so) into a lava, gravel and pumice mix sieved to 3/8" size.

Its pretty tough,

Here is a picture of it taken yesterday.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

How is it that every thread involving Vance somehow ends up as a debate about Mugo Pine hate and/or Mugo Pine zone envy? Here's how. It's like there's a War On Mugos. Haven't heard Debbie Wasserman-Schultz rage about that yet.

Before it gets completely derailed on the mugo crazy train...I'm still eagerly waiting for Vance to show us his process for pinching junipers.

 

[Dav4]

I beg to differ. I am in zone 7b and we do get days at a time with heat over 90. I have one mugo that I have kept alive for 4 years and repotted now 3x and it is fine. I have others that I have had for less time that also dont seem to mind. Granted I am not SE and being near the ocean where temps are more moderated might be a factor. I have recorded temps in my back yard over 100 deg F several days in a row and the mugo and scots pine didnt mind.

Again, 7b NY and 7b GA are NOT the same and never will be even if our typical winter lows are approximately the same. It's the average high and low temps that matter. We average 37 90 F days each year...we're up to 30 already. In the last 6 weeks, it hasn't fallen below 70 F more then 2 or 3 times. Most mornings when I go to work before 8am, it's 75 F and 100% humidity. Winters are mild and short. Sure, we get cold temps but they don't stick around for long. Typical low in January is 32F, typical high is 50F...again, another big difference from our neck of the woods. Fwiw, because of my moderate climate I CAN grow many more things then you can. I have neighbors that have palm trees in their landscape...and Colorado Blue Spruce. Still, I can't grow Mugo here. They sell them at the box stores but you don't see mature ones in the landscape...ever. Anyway, back to mutilating junipers which I can do and try to do so regularly.

 

[coh]

Again, 7b NY and 7b GA are NOT the same and never will be even if our typical winter lows are approximately the same. It's the average high and low temps that matter. We average 37 90 F days each...we're up to 30 already. In the last 6 weeks, it hasn't fallen below 70 F more then 2 or 3 times. Most mornings when I go to work before 8am, it's 75 F and 100% humidity. Winters are mild and short. Sure, we get cold temps but they don't stick around for long. Typical low in January is 32F, typical high is 50F...again, another big difference from our neck of the woods. Fwiw, because of my moderate climate I CAN grow many more things then you can. I have neighbors that have palm trees in their landscape...and Colorado Blue Spruce. Still, I can't grow Mugo here. They sell them at the box stores but you don't see mature ones in the landscape...ever. Anyway, back to mutilating junipers which I can do and try to do so regularly.

You beat me to it. I grew up on Long Island and lived in Virginia for 5 years. The area of Virginia where I lived (west of Richmond) is the same zone (7a I think) as much of Long Island. But there is no comparison between the summers. Summers in Virginia (and points further south) are in another league entirely in terms of heat and humidity. It was not unusual to get 2-3 week stretches where temperatures were in the mid 90s or higher. That doesn't happen very often on Long Island.

Chris

 

[M. Frary]

One thing I know is the Mugos I know love winter here.

 

[Txhorticulture]

Continuing the pedantry, they are 'strobili'. Cones are the female parts (of conifers, which are gymnosperms).

I'm familiar with that terminology too. I don't think "pollen cones" is really wrong though. Definitely better than flowers. Lol.

As for why they don't do well in hot summer climates my guess would be nighttime temperatures. High altitude means very low humidity. Low humidity means drastic radiation cooling and cold nights. Also, their native range is a higher latitude than most of the state's which means lower intensity solar radiation.

A good alternative to mugo in hot climates might be Pinus culminicola. Let me know if you can find it because Ive looked for years.

As for why the juniper pinching thread tured into a mugo thread... probably because it's a classic pissing contest.

 

[0soyoung]

I beg to differ. I am in zone 7b and we do get days at a time with heat over 90. I have one mugo that I have kept alive for 4 years and repotted now 3x and it is fine.

Let us try again. At temperatures over 90F-95F trees consume more energy than is generated by photosynthesis. Simple exposure to temperatures in the range of 90F-115F is not fatal.
At temperatures below 90F, photosynthesis generates more energy than is consumed by metabolic processes - the tree grows and some of the sugars get stored in cells (as starches). During the time the tree is in temperatures above 90F-95F, metabolic processes consume more energy that generated by photosynthesis - the tree lives on stored energy. Sum up the time above 90F-95F during the growing season.

I suggest that when this 'heat index' is a big number, trees will decline and eventually di

 

[Paradox]

Again, 7b NY and 7b GA are NOT the same and never will be even if our typical winter lows are approximately the same. It's the average high and low temps that matter. We average 37 90 F days each year...we're up to 30 already. In the last 6 weeks, it hasn't fallen below 70 F more then 2 or 3 times. Most mornings when I go to work before 8am, it's 75 F and 100% humidity. Winters are mild and short. Sure, we get cold temps but they don't stick around for long. Typical low in January is 32F, typical high is 50F...again, another big difference from our neck of the woods. Fwiw, because of my moderate climate I CAN grow many more things then you can. I have neighbors that have palm trees in their landscape...and Colorado Blue Spruce. Still, I can't grow Mugo here. They sell them at the box stores but you don't see mature ones in the landscape...ever. Anyway, back to mutilating junipers which I can do and try to do so regularly.

Then perhaps we should not be referring to USDA zones when talking about Mugo survivability.
They DO survive quite well in zone 7 in so far as what the designation represents. They clearly dont survive so well south of about NJ or so because of the heat/humidity, which has nothing do to with the USDA zone designation.

In any case, we have hijacked this thread enough. Brian, perhaps when Vance is done with the show and has a chance to, he will answer your question.

 

[0soyoung]

As for why the juniper pinching thread tured into a mugo thread... probably because it's a classic pissing contest.

I agree with your insight.

 

[0soyoung]

because of the heat/humidity

So which is it, heat or humidity?

 

[Paradox]

So which is it, heat or humidity?

Doesnt have to be either or, it can be a combination of both. I know you know this, dont make a fight where there isnt one.