What We Learned About Bonsai Since John Naka

Andrew Robson

Shohin
Messages
462
Reaction score
802
Location
Portland, OR
Check out the latest video from Bonsai Empire's latest series of videos celebrating their 15th anniversary. In this video, Michael Hagedorn explains 10 things that we learned about Bonsai since John Naka.


Its a great video answering a great question! Hope you all enjoy!

Cheers!
 

Smoke

Ignore-Amus
Messages
11,668
Reaction score
20,730
Location
Fresno, CA
USDA Zone
9
Interesting for me too. What I learned is that it was a good thing he went to Japan because apparently Arizona was about 40 years behind everyone else.
 

Andrew Robson

Shohin
Messages
462
Reaction score
802
Location
Portland, OR
Interesting for me too. What I learned is that it was a good thing he went to Japan because apparently Arizona was about 40 years behind everyone else.
Since I've been here, I've only seen you hurt the art of bonsai, not promote it. Every post I've seen of yours has been negative. That's not what bonsai is about.

And for the record, Michael trained in your own California before going to Japan to continue his studies. He trained with someone who puts on a show with his club every year that you said you keep going back to.

Please explain to me which part of the video you disagree with rather than just trolling the forum for your own amusement.
 

Anthony

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,290
Reaction score
8,390
Location
West Indies [ Caribbean ]
USDA Zone
13
Andrew,

that is just Al, being Al, he is very lovable, and cute in his thongs, try not to get too upset with him.

He may just be commenting on the - information - and how things get lost over the years, to appear as - new - x years later.
The Japanese are not immune to the effects of rote, and when science takes over.

From what I can see North America will probably lead the world in Bonsai taste, as time goes by.
Good Day
Anthony

* You may now beat me over the head Al, with your new pistol / thong.
 

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
14,009
Reaction score
46,286
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
Since I've been here, I've only seen you hurt the art of bonsai, not promote it. Every post I've seen of yours has been negative. That's not what bonsai is about.
Original thought and frank opinions, backed by beautiful trees and decades of study; coupled with dry humor and vine-ripened cynicism can be intimidating to the unthinking Kumbayah crowd. But I'd rather read 1 barbed Al post than sift through 100 regurgitated newbie posts.

It's kinda like bonsai itself; I'd rather work one killer JBP whose needles draw a little blood, than 100 S-curve fukein teas. Try to find a killer JBP; and yet, FT are still belched out by the container load for the masses. Party on Al.
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,913
Reaction score
45,603
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2

Smoke

Ignore-Amus
Messages
11,668
Reaction score
20,730
Location
Fresno, CA
USDA Zone
9
Since I've been here, I've only seen you hurt the art of bonsai, not promote it. Every post I've seen of yours has been negative. That's not what bonsai is about.

This is not about me. This is about you, and your drudge report of bonsai media around the world and your lack of original thought and mindless drivel about things other people say and do. Why do you feel a need to take your shortcomings out on me. This is a discussion forum. The only time discussion takes place for any length of time is when there are opposing views. A good argument is even better. If everyone just agrees with your reposting of what real talented people write this place would turn into Bonsai Study Group over night. There, Your welcome.

And for the record, Michael trained in your own California before going to Japan to continue his studies. He trained with someone who puts on a show with his club every year that you said you keep going back to.

What does that have to do with bonsai after Naka. Did you work with Naka? Did you study with Naka? Have you ever seen a Naka tree. I have. I know the man and I know what he wrote and what he did. They were not the same. Naka promoted safe bonsai. Organic soils, loam, minimal fertilizer, over size pots. What Naka did in his backyard was opposite of what he wrote. Most of his bonsai soils were akadama and decomposed granite, which he hauled back by the trailer full from Mojave. As far as Boon, He's a youngster in the bonsai game. The "followers of Boon" use terms like Boon mix. Hey, soil made from akadama, pumice and lava has been used for decades before Boon stopped pooping his diapers. I would just as soon you guys call it California mix or the "trinity". What do you know about Boon? You know anything personal, other than he likes to take the guys to the ice cream parlor?

Here is some background for you.....
boon1.JPG
Before Bonsai Boon it was Green Earth Bonsai Garden, bet you didn't know that?

boon3.JPG
boon2.JPG
boon4.JPG
Next page contains original typo of desert instead of dessert.

boon5.JPG
 

Smoke

Ignore-Amus
Messages
11,668
Reaction score
20,730
Location
Fresno, CA
USDA Zone
9
Sorry Andrew you probably don't know who Mike Page is. The old timers here know who he is and I bet are very surprised to know that Boon took carving lessons from Mike Page. I find his comments about his workshop to be on point. Mike was an elevator repairman and had many fine tools. One of the best carvers I ever seen. I am proud to call Mike my friend. We have shown trees together.

Please explain to me which part of the video you disagree with rather than just trolling the forum for your own amusement.

It's not so much disagree with, as it is you and Micheal are just not factual. I can't speak for the whole USA, but I can speak for the place I live, and many of the things in that video are just not true. In the West, many of the shortcoming he talks about have been practised here since the fourties after the war. I don't troll the forum for amusement. I troll the forum for people who spread disengenuious information, myths and just plain lies. When they do I call Bull Shit and then provide the facts to back it up. Just because a person has not studied in Japan does it make them less than superior. This blog: http://goldcountrybonsaiclub.com/events/
Read the posts by Peter Tea: Here is one from 2015:

Fertilizing Made Easy

For those that aren’t sure about when to fertilize, here is a simple timetable you can use to make it easy. Since we all use different fertilizers and our soil components aren’t the same, I can’t tell you how much to feed but rather when to feed. It’s up to you to observe how your tree is growing and if it’s growing the way you want it to grow.

I currently use Grow Power Plus 5-3-1 organic fertilizer that I put in tea bags. I like using it because the Nitrogen is water soluble which means it’s readily available to the trees now versus other organics where the Nitrogen needs time to breakdown into a usable form. This schedule is mainly for environments in Northern and Central
California.

I wonder where he read about grow power? Could it be over at Study Group since my avatar has me holding a huge bag of it for 6 years and been using it 10 years. Oh thats right I never studied in Japan so I have no moral authority.

This one is a gem:


So what is Defoliation and what does it do for us?

1. slows the tree down. 2. allows light into the tree. 3. new leaves will come out smaller. 4. allows for ease of wiring.

Those are the 4 main reason why we choose to defoliate. If your current goals don’t match up with any of the 4 reasons, then don’t defoliate.

Example: We want a branches to grow out and get stronger. We don’t defoliate that branch. because it will slow the growth down.

Misconceptions: Cutting back vs. Defoliation

The biggest misconception to defoliation is that it will give you back budding. Back budding is not caused by defoliation, but by the cutting back of branches. We can cut the tree back without defoliating and back budding will occur. Keep defoliation and cutting back into two separate categories to help ease the understanding of defoliation.

I have been screaming from the rafters for years about defoliation and what it does. Peter's blog from Japan has numerous posts about defoliating for increased ramification. Now, that is a misconception, and I am totally vindicated by someone that studied in Japan...who knew?

Maybe you should start Drudging from the Bunker, you just might learn something and get a jump on all the dudes from Japan.

...or you could just put me on ignore...your choice.

Heres a couple more interesting tid bits for you to put into your historical drudge report bonsai archives...with attribution of course.

Everyone like to read Bonsai Tonight from Jonas:
jonas1.JPG

Redacted for his protection.
jonas3.JPG

an oldy but a goodie. The wire king:
gremel1.JPG
gremel2.JPG

Many do not know who Morton Wellhaven is, ask Adair he'll tell ya.

morton1.JPG
 
Last edited:

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,918
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Al, Boon didn't name his mix "Boon Mix", others did. The name stuck because Boon is a strong advocate of using inorganic soil. Boon mix is as close to mix he used in Japan as possible.

Al, you have been an advocate for using humates in your fertilizing regimine. If others started calling that "Keppler Magic", because it works, would you be offended? I think not. You'd be honored. At least I think you would. I would if it were me.

I'm not sure what the point of displaying these letters of application for scholarships is. These guys wanted to further their skills by taking lessons. It just so happens that Golden State offered scholarships. What's wrong with applying for one if you are dedicated to bonsai?

By the way, the scholarships worked! Jim, Boon, and Jonas have taught many people about bonsai and how to develop them, and how to maintain them. I think these three have contributed mightily to my knowledge of bonsai, and I live quite a ways from California.

It just seems you have a chip on your shoulder about all this. What I don't understand is why. All these fellows followed up on their education by educating others. Wasn't that the goal of the program?

And while Morten has told some stories of his past, I know of him as the President of the Bay Island Bonsai club, of which Boon is sensei.
 

Smoke

Ignore-Amus
Messages
11,668
Reaction score
20,730
Location
Fresno, CA
USDA Zone
9
Al, Boon didn't name his mix "Boon Mix", others did. The name stuck because Boon is a strong advocate of using inorganic soil. Boon mix is as close to mix he used in Japan as possible.
Great so the trinity was used in Japan before Boon. It was also used here before Boon, thats my point.

Al, you have been an advocate for using humates in your fertilizing regimine. If others started calling that "Keppler Magic", because it works, would you be offended? I think not. You'd be honored. At least I think you would. I would if it were me.
I have not studied in Japan so there fore I am not worthy of such things, IS MY POINT.

I'm not sure what the point of displaying these letters of application for scholarships is. These guys wanted to further their skills by taking lessons. It just so happens that Golden State offered scholarships. What's wrong with applying for one if you are dedicated to bonsai?

By the way, the scholarships worked! Jim, Boon, and Jonas have taught many people about bonsai and how to develop them, and how to maintain them. I think these three have contributed mightily to my knowledge of bonsai, and I live quite a ways from California.

It just seems you have a chip on your shoulder about all this. What I don't understand is why. All these fellows followed up on their education by educating others. Wasn't that the goal of the program?

And while Morten has told some stories of his past, I know of him as the President of the Bay Island Bonsai club, of which Boon is sensei.

My point was the dates. Some how (follow the thread here, since we seem to be talking after Naka and the changes in bonsai) My point is that bonsai in America began in earnest after the war and for the most part has been unchanged since that time. I think a lot of people have no idea about the history of bonsai in America and know bonsai in America via the internet. You can't judge bonsai about its history and the internet unless those providing the info know it. Bonsai, at least in California, was doing quite well with pumice lava and akadama well before Boon, Ryan, Michael, Matt, Owen Bjorn, Peter and whoever I missed. Thats the point, nothing else. The point of this was Bonsai since Naka, and I say it is still as it was fifty years ago, obviously others from Japan think otherwise. You know BCI was developed in the Bay area? Have any old BCI magazines from the 1970's. I can show you articles on pine management from the Japanese in the bay area that were teaching all the crap that everyone studying under the present crop of transplants thinks is new.

Here is a picture of a Roman comb. hasn't changed much in 2500 years eh?
roman-comb.jpg

Sure, that comb is probably made from carved animal bone and now we can make them from Titanium. Big deal... its still a comb.

Bonsai is a tree planted in soil in a pot. Some use specialty ingredients from far away places or places right here but yet so hard to get that they must resort to planting in kitty litter. Really think about the arrogance of Michaels statements that somehow those from Japan have created a paradigm shift in the way Bonsai is done in America. I think some pretty damn important people like William Valavanis and Dan Robinson might have something to say about that.

William Valavanis
DSC_00090002.JPG

Dan Robinson
DSC_00130003.JPG
 

Anthony

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,290
Reaction score
8,390
Location
West Indies [ Caribbean ]
USDA Zone
13
Wow. fascinating !
I do wonder if the Chinese contributed anything at all, with the Clip and Grow legends, or if they did the norm and went silent?

Hey some folk thrive on Eastern mysteries, and eastern food and eastern................................
I am part Chinese, I am immune.

Now very glad I live on a tiny island next to Sud America, where folk think nothing of Bonsai, because we have so much Amazonian jungle.
They leave us aloooooonnnneeeee.
Good Day
Anthony
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,913
Reaction score
45,603
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
William Valavanis

I'm calling Bullshit on this....

Thats a deleted scene from American History X. The one right before this one.American-History-X-ending-300x160.jpg


Sorce
 

Smoke

Ignore-Amus
Messages
11,668
Reaction score
20,730
Location
Fresno, CA
USDA Zone
9
Wow. fascinating !
I do wonder if the Chinese contributed anything at all, with the Clip and Grow legends, or if they did the norm and went silent?

Hey some folk thrive on Eastern mysteries, and eastern food and eastern................................
I am part Chinese, I am immune.

Now very glad I live on a tiny island next to Sud America, where folk think nothing of Bonsai, because we have so much Amazonian jungle.
They leave us aloooooonnnneeeee.
Good Day
Anthony
I have no idea, but the Chinese did flood the market with those tall thin cascade pots Michael despises so much in the 70's and 80's. People mostly bought them out of necessity, much like kitty litter today. The pots I really hate are those from China in two tone color and Chinese writing all over them.
 

Andrew Robson

Shohin
Messages
462
Reaction score
802
Location
Portland, OR
Al, you proved my point exactly. You're posting only to bring negativity to these forums. The letters that you shared (which I'm wondering if you even have the permission to share them) prove absolutely nothing. People go to study with people to get better. The three you insulted do a lot of good for bonsai, just like Hagedorn. I've heard people talk about some of the myths he discussed on these very forums, so if he helps just one person by making his video, it's worth it.

Like I said before, you are only hurting the art of bonsai by doing so, and I have no respect for that.
 

Mark

Mame
Messages
150
Reaction score
167
Please explain your comment sorce.
Click to expand...
I'm calling Bullshit on this....
 

coh

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
5,782
Reaction score
6,825
Location
Rochester, NY
USDA Zone
6
This is what happens when you go through life with a giant chip on your shoulder.
 
Top Bottom