Donald Trump.

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watchndsky said:
we have a winner here.....

although id say the problem goes way beyond the orangutan in office . hes not the first or the last thief. i mean - who truly thinks their politicians are only out to do whats best for their constituents . of course not, repubs pander to the christians, the rich, and former military, dems pander to the poor, the minorities, and the academics - the problem is these groups arent carved up so neatly as their strategists think anymore. trump found a base to appeal to and surprised everyone. he surprised me.
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I said it before, but neither the republicans or dems represent their voter base. They want as few people to vote as possible, because it helps them control a frightened group of people who can be tricked into voting for the the lesser of two evils.

The only major difference between republicans and democrats is that corporations pay republicans to be strong(fight to deregulate industry and shift power away from the people and to big business) and pay democrats to be weak and roll over to whatever the loud mouthed, ignorant republicans say.
 
watchndsky said:
so the young generation isnt going to rescue the old farts? imagine that.

the same gimme some free shit, cant afford college cause it aint free, cant get off the cell phone, whipper snappers who at the age of 22 think they know more than everybody else?

i think ill rely on myself and take my chances.....
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I hear this a lot about my generation and it really pisses me off... Let me point out a few things to you.

First off long gone are the days where a blue-collar man can have a mortgage and a family all supportied by being the sole bread winner, that just isn't possible anymore. If a millennial goes to college these days tuition rates are at their least affordable levels ever, and it doesn't really improve the chances of getting a higher paid job than if they didn't bother. A typical 25-34 year old with a high school diploma earns $5,000 less than in 1980 after adjusting for inflation. Young men earn $7,000 less annually than their dad earned in 1980. This is driven primarily by a huge loss of manufacturing jobs available without needing a degree. I used data from the US but it's the same problem in the UK and elsewhere.

The previous generations had an abundance of well funded public universities and government grants to allow almost anyone who wanted to go to university get that chance. Funding for universities is at a 25 year low, meaning anyone who wants to try and get a degree has to foot the bill. That isn't 'gimme free shit, can't afford college cause it aint free', that's wanting the same opportunities YOU had in previous generations.

Compared to the 80s and 90s where interest rates were up to 12% in some cases, it was easy and made sense to put money aside for later and have that nest egg build up at a reasonable rate for retirement or whatever. My generation has been stuck with interest rates below 2% and even 1% for so long now, any spare money I have is virtually pointless in a saving account it simply wont build up any extra money.

Home ownership is practically impossible for my generation, I got incredibly lucky. Gone are the days when banks would offer mortgages with 0% down payments... Ironically part of the very reason the whole financial crisis happened which YOUR generation caused. In fact because of the comfortable position a huge portion of the previous generations find themselves in - they invest their money buying up a nice big wedge of the low or mid prices housing which younger generations would be at least aiming to buy, and then start renting it out to the same younger families or selling them on at inflated prices. Housing stock has shrunk massively, which means rents are sky rocketing and further cutting any saving potential for renters who are mostly the younger people who can't afford to buy.

Being lazy doesn't even come into it. On average the number of hours worked per week has steadily increased, and the amount of annual leave taken (not available) has decreased for fear of appearing unmotivated and losing their job.

Previous generations have out performed their parents in salary generation after generation, that's stopped at my generation and we get told we're lazy. You guys could get a job and have that same job for a whole career and that was enough to buy everything you ever needed. I did an advanced apprenticeship in steel fabrication/welding and within 3 years of completing it went through 2 rounds of redundancies where the work force was cut by a LOT. In 9 years annual bonuses were stopped completely, the working hours increased by 2, the way annual holiday was calculated changed to reduce the overall amount, and wages rose so pitifully it didn't meet cost of living rises at all so I was earning less than when I just finished my apprenticeship.

The last 30 years has seen government debt absolutely smash through any reasonable ceiling, and now the government which is basically run by the same generations who grew up with everything they needed has decided to tear it all way. Not only pull away all those safety nets THEY enjoyed, but slap the younger generations with the f**king bill they ran up. The baby boomer generation grew up in the strongest economical periods in recent times, where even throughout boom/bust the standards of living and economic growth was far far greater than what we've experienced.

Sorry to shatter your illusion that all us millennials just want free shit. Actually we just want the same opportunities you old farts enjoyed, totally squandered and then decided to take away to pay for your free shit you had access to. Literally climbed the ladder of opportunity, then pulled it up behind you and wonder why the next generations can't reach the same lofty heights you did.
 
Cattwooduk said:
I hear this a lot about my generation and it really pisses me off... Let me point out a few things to you.

First off long gone are the days where a blue-collar man can have a mortgage and a family all supportied by being the sole bread winner, that just isn't possible anymore. If a millennial goes to college these days tuition rates are at their least affordable levels ever, and it doesn't really improve the chances of getting a higher paid job than if they didn't bother. A typical 25-34 year old with a high school diploma earns $5,000 less than in 1980 after adjusting for inflation. Young men earn $7,000 less annually than their dad earned in 1980. This is driven primarily by a huge loss of manufacturing jobs available without needing a degree. I used data from the US but it's the same problem in the UK and elsewhere.

The previous generations had an abundance of well funded public universities and government grants to allow almost anyone who wanted to go to university get that chance. Funding for universities is at a 25 year low, meaning anyone who wants to try and get a degree has to foot the bill. That isn't 'gimme free shit, can't afford college cause it aint free', that's wanting the same opportunities YOU had in previous generations.

Compared to the 80s and 90s where interest rates were up to 12% in some cases, it was easy and made sense to put money aside for later and have that nest egg build up at a reasonable rate for retirement or whatever. My generation has been stuck with interest rates below 2% and even 1% for so long now, any spare money I have is virtually pointless in a saving account it simply wont build up any extra money.

Home ownership is practically impossible for my generation, I got incredibly lucky. Gone are the days when banks would offer mortgages with 0% down payments... Ironically part of the very reason the whole financial crisis happened which YOUR generation caused. In fact because of the comfortable position a huge portion of the previous generations find themselves in - they invest their money buying up a nice big wedge of the low or mid prices housing which younger generations would be at least aiming to buy, and then start renting it out to the same younger families or selling them on at inflated prices. Housing stock has shrunk massively, which means rents are sky rocketing and further cutting any saving potential for renters who are mostly the younger people who can't afford to buy.

Being lazy doesn't even come into it. On average the number of hours worked per week has steadily increased, and the amount of annual leave taken (not available) has decreased for fear of appearing unmotivated and losing their job.

Previous generations have out performed their parents in salary generation after generation, that's stopped at my generation and we get told we're lazy. You guys could get a job and have that same job for a whole career and that was enough to buy everything you ever needed. I did an advanced apprenticeship in steel fabrication/welding and within 3 years of completing it went through 2 rounds of redundancies where the work force was cut by a LOT. In 9 years annual bonuses were stopped completely, the working hours increased by 2, the way annual holiday was calculated changed to reduce the overall amount, and wages rose so pitifully it didn't meet cost of living rises at all so I was earning less than when I just finished my apprenticeship.

The last 30 years has seen government debt absolutely smash through any reasonable ceiling, and now the government which is basically run by the same generations who grew up with everything they needed has decided to tear it all way. Not only pull away all those safety nets THEY enjoyed, but slap the younger generations with the f**king bill they ran up. The baby boomer generation grew up in the strongest economical periods in recent times, where even throughout boom/bust the standards of living and economic growth was far far greater than what we've experienced.

Sorry to shatter your illusion that all us millennials just want free shit. Actually we just want the same opportunities you old farts enjoyed, totally squandered and then decided to take away to pay for your free shit you had access to. Literally climbed the ladder of opportunity, then pulled it up behind you and wonder why the next generations can't reach the same lofty heights you did.
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First off u have no idea how old i am. But either way let me tell how many advantages i had growing up.
Nope nevermind not worth it. I dont know anything about you and i can absolutely guaranfuckingtee i have had no more advantages than you. Quit whining and man the fuck up. I did and it paid off. I suggest you do the same cause the rest of the world gives two shits about your excuses and blame games.

Free shit i had... You dont have a fucking clue.
 
watchndsky said:
First off u have no idea how old i am. But either way let me tell how many advantages i had growing up.
Nope nevermind not worth it. I dont know anything about you and i can absolutely guaranfuckingtee i have had no more advantages than you. Quit whining and man the fuck up. I did and it paid off. I suggest you do the same cause the rest of the world gives two shits about your excuses and blame games.

Free shit i had... You dont have a fucking clue.
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That's not how any of this works. I'm tired of this nonsensical excuse.

Listen, I understand if you worked your ass off to get where you are. I come from a long line of immigrants myself. My mother was the first one on her side of her family to go to college. My grandfather was a construction worker and member of the national guard. I have master brick layers and masons on both sides of my family for 5 generations Jesus cristo, my birth name is literally tied to tile laying. I grew up in a small business and helped my grandparents run it.

We are not talking about what the individual does, here. This is the entire country. It's a fact that wages have fallen behind the economic growth of the country. It's a fact that Americans have less buying power than most other countries. It's a fact that a free market health care system is less efficient than medicare for all.

I don't want you to be a poor person. What I want is to take the undeserved wealth from the insanely super wealthy and distribute it fairly. This isn't the fucking paleolithic. We shouldn't be fighting just to survive.
 
GroveKeeper said:
That's not how any of this works. I'm tired of this nonsensical excuse.

Listen, I understand if you worked your ass off to get where you are. I come from a long line of immigrants myself. My mother was the first one on her side of her family to go to college. My grandfather was a construction worker and member of the national guard. I have master brick layers and masons on both sides of my family for 5 generations Jesus cristo, my birth name is literally tied to tile laying. I grew up in a small business and helped my grandparents run it.

We are not talking about what the individual does, here. This is the entire country. It's a fact that wages have fallen behind the economic growth of the country. It's a fact that Americans have less buying power than most other countries. It's a fact that a free market health care system is less efficient than medicare for all.

I don't want you to be a poor person. What I want is to take the undeserved wealth from the insanely super wealthy and distribute it fairly. This isn't the fucking paleolithic. We shouldn't be fighting just to survive.
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i dont know how that post has anything to do with health care but i agree with you - i absolutely know firsthand the inefficiencies of freemarket health care - ive been working in it since i was 18.

i dont know what kind of nonsensical excuse i was giving - but the fact is nobody owes anyone anything. the sooner people can remove the words "ought to" , "should", "unfair" from their vocabularies the sooner they can change their lot in life. the house beside mine is a 2million dollar home - it'd be pretty easy to compare my life to theirs and lament the fact that they have it so much better than me, that they had an unfair advantage because they were born into money etc. but i dont do that. because its stupid. i look at where ive gotten and where i came from and im happy and proud. its worth a try - it sure made a difference in my life when i started thinking that way.

as soon as someone starts complaining about their lot in life because "Compared to the 80s and 90s where interest rates were up to 12% in some cases, it was easy and made sense to put money aside for later" - they have shown to me they think they have it a lot worse than they actually do and have no perspective on who has it bad and who doesnt. bitching about interest rate yields, and missing meals or sneaking food out your friends house because they had food stamps and actually had food to eat - are freaking worlds apart.

that may sound harsh but more people need to hear it.

and i dont know what the guy was talking about- but the 80s sucked? the only people winning or living high on the proverbial hog were the rich and powerful - the same as they always have. this hate on baby boomers or some contrived "the previous generation ruined my chance at a good life wah wah" narrative is bullshit.
 
@Cat

"The baby boomer generation grew up in the strongest economical periods in recent times, where even throughout boom/bust the standards of living and economic growth was far far greater than what we've experienced."

The only thing you were wrong about is that it was only the first 1/2 of theBB era that fattened themselves off of the bounty of the WW2 boom, but otherwise you are spot on.
 
"this hate on baby boomers or some contrived "the previous generation ruined my chance at a good life wah wah" narrative is bullshit."

Oh no it's not... not in Canada anyway. You want to find a fat, loud-mouthed, overly-opinionated person, you only have to look at one demographic to find them... well, them and the drunken schlub that just tumbled out of the bar...
 
SKBonsaiGuy said:
"this hate on baby boomers or some contrived "the previous generation ruined my chance at a good life wah wah" narrative is bullshit."

Oh no it's not... not in Canada anyway. You want to find a fat, loud-mouthed, overly-opinionated person, you only have to look at one demographic to find them... well, them and the drunken schlub that just tumbled out of the bar...
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wow - exact opposite here. the loud mouth, overly opinionated folks tend to be the younger generation here. id say my generation and younger.

wellllll not exactly. there maybe some truth to that depending on the part of the u.s. you are in. in the areas where you find those loud mouthed overly opinionated persons, they ALL tend to act that way. down here we call them yankees. :)

that was just a joke by the way.
 
Back to the debt clock... http://www.usdebtclock.org

... every American child already owes $61,000.00 to the government, the moment they take their first breath, for being born within the confines of the border... THAT wasn't there in 1950 (just to pick a number)...
 
I'd like to say that the "first world" has learnt their lesson and now we are ready to buckle down and begin to do something about it... sadly, I don't even see the beginning of this debate.
 
SKBonsaiGuy said:
Back to the debt clock... http://www.usdebtclock.org

... every American child already owes $61,000.00 to the government, the moment they take their first breath, for being born within the confines of the border... THAT wasn't there in 1950 (just to pick a number)...
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scary isnt it. i dont know why anyone would want to migrate here.
 
watchndsky said:
i dont know how that post has anything to do with health care but i agree with you - i absolutely know firsthand the inefficiencies of freemarket health care - ive been working in it since i was 18.

i dont know what kind of nonsensical excuse i was giving - but the fact is nobody owes anyone anything. the sooner people can remove the words "ought to" , "should", "unfair" from their vocabularies the sooner they can change their lot in life. the house beside mine is a 2million dollar home - it'd be pretty easy to compare my life to theirs and lament the fact that they have it so much better than me, that they had an unfair advantage because they were born into money etc. but i dont do that. because its stupid. i look at where ive gotten and where i came from and im happy and proud. its worth a try - it sure made a difference in my life when i started thinking that way.

as soon as someone starts complaining about their lot in life because "Compared to the 80s and 90s where interest rates were up to 12% in some cases, it was easy and made sense to put money aside for later" - they have shown to me they think they have it a lot worse than they actually do and have no perspective on who has it bad and who doesnt. bitching about interest rate yields, and missing meals or sneaking food out your friends house because they had food stamps and actually had food to eat - are freaking worlds apart.

that may sound harsh but more people need to hear it.

and i dont know what the guy was talking about- but the 80s sucked? the only people winning or living high on the proverbial hog were the rich and powerful - the same as they always have. this hate on baby boomers or some contrived "the previous generation ruined my chance at a good life wah wah" narrative is bullshit.
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I don't think anybody owes anybody anything else.

I'm being as honest as I can here. I'm not trying to convert you or bring you over to my side. I don't hate people who are wealthy. I don't even hate people who were born into wealth, like Donny tiny hands. Myself... my dad was a small business owner. He was prosperous until he became a violent drunk and drug addict. My mom had to raise me and my sister as a single parent while fighting to get custody from a lunatic. I didn't grow up under great circumstances but I don't begrudge people who did. We don't chose our parents.

What truly upsets me. And when I say this, I genuinely have tears in my eyes nbecause I love this country, is that there are people in our country, the richest country on earth, who cannot afford medical treatment. That isn't right. We can spend trillions of dollars of stupid fucking wars but medicare for all is a hand out? Come on.

I'm ready to die. My personal life doesn't matter. But the only thing that matters to me is that other people don't have to die. Other people shouldn't have to chose between feeding their family or buying medicine they need. And neither Donny, nor any wing of the repubs, save crazy ass Rand Paul, or any dems, save awesome Bernie are fighting for that right. It hurts me that our country is so far gone that we cant provide basic health care for our citizens. I just don't get it.
 
GroveKeeper said:
I don't think anybody owes anybody anything else.

I'm being as honest as I can here. I'm not trying to convert you or bring you over to my side. I don't hate people who are wealthy. I don't even hate people who were born into wealth, like Donny tiny hands. Myself... my dad was a small business owner. He was prosperous until he became a violent drunk and drug addict. My mom had to raise me and my sister as a single parent while fighting to get custody from a lunatic. I didn't grow up under great circumstances but I don't begrudge people who did. We don't chose our parents.

What truly upsets me. And when I say this, I genuinely have tears in my eyes nbecause I love this country, is that there are people in our country, the richest country on earth, who cannot afford medical treatment. That isn't right. We can spend trillions of dollars of stupid fucking wars but medicare for all is a hand out? Come on.

I'm ready to die. My personal life doesn't matter. But the only thing that matters to me is that other people don't have to die. Other people shouldn't have to chose between feeding their family or buying medicine they need. And neither Donny, nor any wing of the repubs, save crazy ass Rand Paul, or any dems, save awesome Bernie are fighting for that right. It hurts me that our country is so far gone that we cant provide basic health care for our citizens. I just don't get it.
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i dont think we are in disagreement ? health care is the number one cause of bankruptcies - the state of health care sucks here. ive been covered on my own policy since i was 17 - and coverage has gotten progressively worse every year. its not an issue for the rich,because they are rich. its not an issue for the very poor, because they just dont pay. but for everyone else, it sucks.
 
I always draw fire for speaking in support of the uber rich, but I don't think this crowd is incapable of seeing the wisdom in what I'm about to say:

"America" (and other first world nations) need to forget about the uber rich and their bank accounts. I think most of us can readily see that IF the governments could claw back all of their wealth, they would still be willing to spend 150% more than what came in... and then you are truly screwed. It's the uber rich, in "justifiable war time", that governments and industry turn to, to be able to fight a legitimate threat to national security and democracy. They really are the only factor that will prevent one nation from invading another because they are not burdened with policy, and what they will do (to the invading nation) and how they are going to react, is unpredictable, swift, and oftentimes unforeseen.
 
Alright everyone, I think we've solved all of the world's problems... lets go for beers! :)
 
watchndsky said:
i dont think we are in disagreement ? health care is the number one cause of bankruptcies - the state of health care sucks here. ive been covered on my own policy since i was 17 - and coverage has gotten progressively worse every year. its not an issue for the rich,because they are rich. its not an issue for the very poor, because they just dont pay. but for everyone else, it sucks.
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I have a feeling we don't disagree on much. I'm an atheist myself and no longer identify as a liberal, though maybe for different reasons than you. Personally, I think the dems have gone too far right. Part of hilldogs campaign strategy was to abandon working the class and pick up 2 republicans instead. Jesus christ, they knew 70 years ago that when the democrats move away from their progressive base that they lose power. And yet these corporate shills still think that all they need to do is make more money to win.

I don't know about you, but I'm going to make my representatives life a living hell. Lil' Marco can run but he can't hide.
 
... did anyone notice that we had an open and respectful exchange on this thread today... and the only difference was the absence of one demographic in particular?... or I should say, the first portion of that demo... :P
 
SKBonsaiGuy said:
I always draw fire for speaking in support of the uber rich, but I don't think this crowd is incapable of seeing the wisdom in what I'm about to say:

"America" (and other first world nations) need to forget about the uber rich and their bank accounts. I think most of us can readily see that IF the governments could claw back all of their wealth, they would still be willing to spend 150% more than what came in... and then you are truly screwed. It's the uber rich, in "justifiable war time", that governments and industry turn to, to be able to fight a legitimate threat to national security and democracy. They really are the only factor that will prevent one nation from invading another because they are not burdened with policy, and what they will do (to the invading nation) and how they are going to react, is unpredictable, swift, and oftentimes unforeseen.
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Not true for America and them Crazy Russians. Even if we throttled back on our military spending, we'd still have the biggest gun dick on earth. Seriously, nobody wants to directly fuck with America. That's why Putin plays with these goody proxy wars. It's only because of oil interests that we're trying to give Syria military cunnilingus. If it weren't for the oil interests of the violent muslim extremist nation of Saudi Arabia and the Apartheid state of Israel, we wouldn't be messing around in Syria. And then Putin's propagandists at RT and Infowars wouldn't be able to make us out as the bad giys
 
GroveKeeper said:
Not true for America and them Crazy Russians. Even if we throttled back on our military spending, we'd still have the biggest gun dick on earth. Seriously, nobody wants to directly fuck with America. That's why Putin plays with these goody proxy wars. It's only because of oil interests that we're trying to give Syria military cunnilingus. If it weren't for the oil interests of the violent muslim extremist nation of Saudi Arabia and the Apartheid state of Israel, we wouldn't be messing around in Syria. And then Putin's propagandists at RT and Infowars wouldn't be able to make us out as the bad giys
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I don't regard "oil wars" as being legitimate threats to democracy... in particular, I meant WW1 and WW2. It was the wealth of the uber rich that largely funded that defence.
 
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