Collecting in Wintertime...?

[barguy8194]

Everything I’ve read has said that mid- or late-spring is the best time to collect trees for Yamadori. However... has anyone ever tried to collect in mid- or late-winter?
Seems to my novice mind that the only issue here would be frozen ground. A pick-mattuck works just fine to chop out the root block, and as long as the trees are kept outside until Spring anyway, keeping everything dormant/frozen... would there be any negative impact on the tree?

 

[bonsaichile]

Of course there would be. Collecting necessarily damages the roots. If they are not growimg, they will not be able to repair themselves and sustain the tree when it wakes from dormancy. Frozen ground is the least of the problems.

 

[Hack Yeah!]

Of course there would be. Collecting necessarily damages the roots. If they are not growimg, they will not be able to repair themselves and sustain the tree when it wakes from dormancy. Frozen ground is the least of the problems.

Eh, I'm not sure I'm buying this. Maybe seasoned collectors can weigh in. I collected some hornbeam mid winter which did as well as those I collected early spring. Perhaps it's species dependent? I thought it had more to do with harnessing energy from the roots already flowing up the tree?

 

[barguy8194]

Of course there would be. Collecting necessarily damages the roots. If they are not growimg, they will not be able to repair themselves and sustain the tree when it wakes from dormancy. Frozen ground is the least of the problems.

I see. That may be the piece I was missing... my assumption was that collecting late spring is collecting with the intention of doing so just at the transition between dormancy and spring growth, whereas collecting a fully dormant tree wouldn’t be much different, would it?

Wouldn’t the tree just remain in dormancy until spring, then begin growing the same as if it were waking up at home in the woods?

Trying to understand this whole process a little better...

 

[Zach Smith]

Of course there would be. Collecting necessarily damages the roots. If they are not growimg, they will not be able to repair themselves and sustain the tree when it wakes from dormancy. Frozen ground is the least of the problems.

This is incorrect. While collecting does "damage" the roots, as in removal/shortening of many if not most of them, trees have the remarkable ability to regrow an entire root system. If they didn't, you'd never be able to collect any in winter. I collect 90% of everything I collect in winter, with an average survival rate of about 80%.

 

[bonsaichile]

This is incorrect. While collecting does "damage" the roots, as in removal/shortening of many if not most of them, trees have the remarkable ability to regrow an entire root system. If they didn't, you'd never be able to collect any in winter. I collect 90% of everything I collect in winter, with an average survival rate of about 80%.

Yes, but you are an experienced collector, unlike the OP. He is more likely to do more damage to the roots and provide less adequate aftercare than you do.

 

[bonsaidave]

I do it very late winter/early spring.

I use some local trees to tell me when to dig (deciduous trees). When I see buds begin to turn color, on some certain local trees, I start digging and repotting like crazy. I don't remember the type of tree but they are on my drive to work and they are always first to show signs of spring. They do this every year and every year some of my trees are leafing out around 2 weeks later. Everything has leaves, both local and my trees, about a month after.

I have lost very few trees this way. You can indeed start earlier in winter. This way just works for me so far.

 

[Aaronkslater]

Barguy... make sure you look at peoples locations before you take their advice too seriously on this so far you have input from Zach Smith in Louisiana and Dave in Texas... Not really going to apply to New Hampshire LOL!!

 

[barguy8194]

Barguy... make sure you look at peoples locations before you take their advice too seriously on this so far you have input from Zach Smith in Louisiana and Dave in Texas... Not really going to apply to New Hampshire LOL!!

Right, well that’s the main part of my question... where I am, “mid winter” means a block of ice... so essentially the trees are in suspended animation. My guess is that collecting now versus late April when the soil thaws wouldn’t really make much difference. They’ll either thaw in April in a pot, or they’ll thaw in April in the ground.

 

[Dav4]

Personally, I think you will have a less traumatic collection when the soil is thawed… My two cents.

 

[Mellos]

Any time to you remove plants from the ground you are damaging roots, particularly finer ones. I would assume this is even more true for cold brittle roots. Unless you had the ability to get the tree into a greenhouse and get a jumpstart on spring it would still have to ride the rest of the winter out (in New Hampshire), but now with disturbed and damaged roots. That can’t be good for a tree can it? I’m not saying it wouldn’t survive, but I am curious to know what the advantages of taking chances like that would be.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Back in school we grew soil dwelling microbes in the fridge. They wake up months before the trees do.
That's why stratifications can fail, that's why it's better to wait before until just before the tree wakes up; repair those points of entry for pathogens as soon as possible.
It's not the whole reason, but a large part of it.

 

[barguy8194]

Personally, I think you will have a less traumatic collection when the soil is thawed… My two cents.

@Dav4 whats your reasoning behind that? I learn best from conversations with those more experienced and knowledgeable than me... I don’t just want your two cents, I want the whole dollar ?

Back in school we grew soil dwelling microbes in the fridge. They wake up months before the trees do.
That's why stratifications can fail, that's why it's better to wait before until just before the tree wakes up; repair those points of entry for pathogens as soon as possible.
It's not the whole reason, but a large part of it.

So the trees are still absorbing something through the roots (pathogens potentially included) even when frozen solid?

 

[BunjaeKorea]

This is incorrect. While collecting does "damage" the roots, as in removal/shortening of many if not most of them, trees have the remarkable ability to regrow an entire root system. If they didn't, you'd never be able to collect any in winter. I collect 90% of everything I collect in winter, with an average survival rate of about 80%.

I collect most of mine in winter too (as do many professional collectors in Japan and Korea). As soon as the ground is thawed enough to dig.

Frozen trees are in full hibernation..... the only thing you need to worry about is not bare rooting pines when you dig them up in winter!

 

[Dav4]

@Dav4 whats your reasoning behind that? I learn best from conversations with those more experienced and knowledgeable than me... I don’t just want your two cents, I want the whole dollar ?

First, I've never even considered digging in frozen soil before, so am not really speaking from a position of experience, but here is my reasoning. You can't collect a tree without damaging roots. Even in the best conditions, digging a tree is difficult. Trying to chop an appropriately sized root ball for the tree from frozen soil? I'm assuming these are decent sized trees and not just seedlings? You're talking cubic feet of frozen soil. That alone says you're unlikely to dig a big root ball. Also, frozen soil isn't pliant or soft... it's hard and unforgiving. That means torn or crushed roots that wouldn't get torn or crushed if the soil wasn't frozen. Fwiw, I don't know of ANYONE who deliberately collects when the soil is frozen.

 

[LanceMac10]

Dig? In New Hampshire? In winter?


I would think you might have snow to shovel....and the frozen ground might be an issue.....

 

[Zach Smith]

Yes, but you are an experienced collector, unlike the OP. He is more likely to do more damage to the roots and provide less adequate aftercare than you do.

No argument here. It takes a good while to develop the techniques for your own individual situation, to find out what works and what doesn't. I've never had to deal with frozen ground, and frankly would most likely not try to collect in such a situation.

 

[peterbone]

Low temperatures and frozen soil isn't the only problem with collecting mid winter. The main issue is that most of the energy is stored in the roots. By collecting early you're removing a lot of that energy that the tree needs to leaf out in spring. By waiting until spring the energy will have risen up into the trunk and branches.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Fwiw, I don't know of ANYONE who deliberately collects when the soil is frozen.

No doubt. Growing big trees in little pots is challenging enough. Why make it punishing too??

 

[rockm]

Everything I’ve read has said that mid- or late-spring is the best time to collect trees for Yamadori. However... has anyone ever tried to collect in mid- or late-winter?
Seems to my novice mind that the only issue here would be frozen ground. A pick-mattuck works just fine to chop out the root block, and as long as the trees are kept outside until Spring anyway, keeping everything dormant/frozen... would there be any negative impact on the tree?

This is flawed thinking and misunderstands how collection and trees work. It works roughly like this--in winter trees store reserves in their roots. In early to mid spring, those reserves are pushed back up into the tree's upper portion (which is why early spring is when sugar maples are tapped--the sap "is rising" and can be collected more easily and les destructively than digging the roots up)

With winter collection, aside from the mostly impossible task of digging frozen soil, trees' reserves that will fuel top growth and recovery are still in the roots. You want to collect at the time when those reserves are being put to use to aid in post collection recovery--ideally, you want to dig when leaf buds are just about to burst open into leaves. That means the tree has committed to growth. Removing roots before the tree begins, or is down the path of this process, weakens the tree.

And BTW, I don't know if you've ever tried to dig frozen soil, but I had a longtime friend who was a gravedigger (someone has to do it). The cemetery team sometimes used small dynamite charges to loosen soil in the winter. A pick and mattock on frozen soil is going to be a bee-otch that won't really pay off.

Also, if you don't have a frost free site to store those collected trees and they freeze, you will have considerable die back on cut roots and the trunk of the tree.

Good luck...