Pre-Bonsai What is it?

[John Ruger]

I'd call it pre-bonsai material...as much as I hate the term and I guess it has to be called something. Is that your material?

 

[Vance Wood]

I'd call it pre-bonsai material...as much as I hate the term and I guess it has to be called something. Is that your material?

I don't know if this is what you would call a pre-bonsai unless you count obvious plausibility as a bonsai. Assuming that nothing has been done to this tree that is what we could remotely call bonsai treatment, root work, minor or major pruning with a design in mind, or a bonsai specific purpose, it would fall into the category of heck of a good nursery find or a yamidori, if found in the woods. This is another point.

Yamadori and nursery trees are kind of alike in a lot of respects. Yamidori are not pre-bonsai because they have not been worked on by anything but the forces of nature and the accident of location. A yamidori has two problems: One, they are usually in need of a great deal of root work to create a root system that is fine and compact enough to support a tree in a small container. This usually means that the tree has to have an entire root system cultivated from the probable few long and fragile roots nature has provided it. Second, the branching is in as much need of developing often resorting to grafting to place branches where none would form naturally on a tree of this age.

Nursery trees are not pre-bonsai becuse they have not been worked on by anything but the goals of the landscape trade and the accident of cultural mistakes that impart some sort of trait that would attract the bonsai enthusiast. They two have two problems: One they are usually in need of a great deal of root work to create a root system that is fine and compact enough to support a tree in a small container. Unlike Yamidori, nursery trees have more roots then needed but most are not the kind of roots a bonsai is in need of. The nursery tree needs to have the root system replaced for the most part. Two, nursery trees are often if not almost always in need of major branch reduction but the end goal is to make a pleasing bonsai image in the same way as a Yamidor would be.

Nursery and Yamidori are at the two extremes of available material. Which is better? Yamidori of course, the first bonsai were no doubt yamadori. As to the above Juniper: From the looks of it, it could be either nursery or Yamidori but considering the material I would rule out real Yamadori (collected from the Mountains) and suggest a third choice, the collected from the landscape. Now here is the conundrum; if it was collected from the landscape it had to have two things happen. One, it had to be recognized by some bonsai practitioner, and two, harvested for that purposes. Two interventions by a bonsai practitioner would make it a Pre-bonsai in my way of looking at things.

Using that criteria a Yamadori once harvested, and cared for enough for sale or enough for bonsai culture to begin in enest would also be a pre-bonsai. Does anyone see a flaw in my logic here? It seems to me that for a tree to be called a pre-bonsai that there has to have been at least two bonsai related man made interventions for the tree to qualify.

Let me throw this one out. If a bonsai grower harvests a tree from the mountains as part of his business; is not the resulting stock pre-bonsai once the efforts to start a new, and better root system, and survival of the tree been established? If the same grower goes to a nursery and finds some trees that have favorable attributes and starts to cut the tree up, roots and branches, is this tree not now pre-bonsai? If not why. Is there a reason or is it only prejudicial? The only difference between the two trees technically is one is much older than the other.

Some may be tempted to answer; "Well every body knows Yamidori is better". Here again that too is not altogether accurate, I have seem some god-awful Yamidori. Being harvested from the wild does not make them good trees, just old trees harvested from the wild that should have been left alone. However if that tree is cared for and resold it has become a pre-bonsai, a bad pre-bonsai but one none the less.

Sorry I didn't mean to ge so long winded here. I guess the point I am trying to get to is an understanding of what this esoteric pre-bonsai really is and that it is really more difficult to identify than previously suggested.

 

[Smoke]

It seems to me that "you" are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.

I can think of only two reasons why this would be important to any one.

1. A Will Heath contest. It seems that on more than one occassion some people had been disqualified from some contests at AofB for using material "Will Heath" deemed Pre-Bonsai over raw stock in essence calling some people liars. I was one of them. I have the photo's if anyone is interested and you all can be the judge.

or

2. A person is stuck in some sort of "I have made this all by myself and no one has ever touched my creation except me" complex, which would make understanding what constitutes pre bonsai from raw stock more important.

In all cases I find all this labeling kind of silly. Buy a tree, who cares who's touched it, turn it into something beautiful and post a picture of it. Your peers will tell you if you have talent or not. If you don't much care if your peers like it or you could care less if you have talent then much of this whole thread is moot, in which case I have no idea why this is important.

 

[Smoke]

If I ran into this tree in a nursery I would grab it up in a minute. There is a lot to work with. Large trunk base and a lot of possibilities. It does look like it needs a couple of years of good care but yes, it's worth a shot. It looks like San Jose Juniper. As to style and all of that I don't worry about that kind of thing in the beginning.

Now I'm kinda confused...

Are you saying that this tree has never been worked, and so this tree is worthy of you to work on cause you don't work on other peoples stuff?

or

are you considering calling this pre bonsai but too good to pass up...cause if you are ...welcome to the dark side.

 

[Vance Wood]

Now I'm kinda confused...

Are you saying that this tree has never been worked, and so this tree is worthy of you to work on cause you don't work on other peoples stuff?

or

are you considering calling this pre bonsai but too good to pass up...cause if you are ...welcome to the dark side.

I'm saying I don't know the tree's provenance so I can't put a title on it. And please get off your high horse, I just started a discussion that apparently you think has no merit. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

[jk_lewis]

Quote Originally Posted by mcpesq817 View Post

Does it really matter what the definition of "pre-bonsai" is? No offense, as I'm not trying to be snarky or anything, but can't we just say it's somewhere on the spectrum of completely raw material and "finished" bonsai? I have a hard time understanding why the bonsai forums seem to be full of threads with theoretical questions like this.

Vance replied:

It is from theory that you get practice. Do you think wire was always used in doing bonsai. Do you think summer repotting of certain species of Pine was common practice---etc. But again if it floats your boat then do it, if it sinks you raft; don't; but at least you have some sort of idea where people's heads are at and can benefit from their trials and errors.

And I add: This discussion is one thousand percent more interesting, and more worthwhile, than tedious essays on "is bonsai Art" (note the capital "A") that so many sites get drowned in and overwhelmed by -- most notably AOB.

 

[mcpesq817]

In all cases I find all this labeling kind of silly. Buy a tree, who cares who's touched it, turn it into something beautiful and post a picture of it. Your peers will tell you if you have talent or not. If you don't much care if your peers like it or you could care less if you have talent then much of this whole thread is moot, in which case I have no idea why this is important.

I couldn't agree more!

While I agree with JKL that this topic is a little more interesting than the ubiquitous "is bonsai art" types of threads, I still think these theoretical discussions end up being a waste of time and people end up getting all pissy at one another. Focus on nice trees, techniques, etc. instead of the metaphysics.

 

[Vance Wood]

I couldn't agree more!

While I agree with JKL that this topic is a little more interesting than the ubiquitous "is bonsai art" types of threads, I still think these theoretical discussions end up being a waste of time and people end up getting all pissy at one another. Focus on nice trees, techniques, etc. instead of the metaphysics.

Just a quick question: If what a Pre-Bonsai is, is of little importance then why, when the subject is raised by a newbie as to where to get material, Pre-Bonsai is almost always mentioned? This sounds kind of double minded to me.

 

[mcpesq817]

If someone asked me that question, I would tell them to go to a number of excellent bonsai vendors out there, like Brent at Evergreengardenworks, Don of Gregory Beach Bonsai, etc. If they had a little more experience, I would suggest Andy Smith of Golden Arrow Bonsai for collected material. With those vendors, typically some level of work, selection, etc. has been put into the material making it better material to work with.

I've tried going to regular landscape nurseries, and while I have a few trees I'm working on that I purchased from there, I think it's generally not worth the time and effort to find good material (particularly as newbies may have less of an eye for what makes good material). I know that others have had good success with regular nurseries, but I think the time is better spent going to bonsai vendors.

 

[HotAction]

Another example for discussion: What would you consider this material? Would you work with it? Why or why not?

Dave

 

[Ang3lfir3]

depends... what did it look like before you bought it?? and where did you get it from....

sigh I think I walked into a trap...

honestly... pre-bonsai or not... I don't care what you call it.... find great material and work with it.... and don't sweat the small stuff

 

[raydomz]

It's all a matter of perspective.
As my fiance will attest "it just looks like a tree".

 

[Vance Wood]

If someone asked me that question, I would tell them to go to a number of excellent bonsai vendors out there, like Brent at Evergreengardenworks, Don of Gregory Beach Bonsai, etc. If they had a little more experience, I would suggest Andy Smith of Golden Arrow Bonsai for collected material. With those vendors, typically some level of work, selection, etc. has been put into the material making it better material to work with.

I've tried going to regular landscape nurseries, and while I have a few trees I'm working on that I purchased from there, I think it's generally not worth the time and effort to find good material (particularly as newbies may have less of an eye for what makes good material). I know that others have had good success with regular nurseries, but I think the time is better spent going to bonsai vendors.

Unfortunately bonsai vendors are sadly lacking in most of the country. Which brings up the expense of going to visit one and the almost mandatory compunction to buy something; especially after expending the resources to get there in the first place, even if the material sucks.

 

[Vance Wood]

Another example for discussion: What would you consider this material? Would you work with it? Why or why not?

Dave

Here again without knowing the provenance I cannot tell you for sure. I would say it is probably worked on by someone as a bonsai, most nurseries I have known would not have put a tree in a pot like you show in your example. If that assumption is correct it would qualify as pre-bonsai. However regardless of source (ruling out some exorbitant price), I would grab it in a minute. It's a good tree with more than great possibilities. The trunk has great movement, there is dead wood in the right places and the growth is workable. Personally I have seen so called finished bonsai that are not this good. It just needs a little tweaking assuming the roots are good and manageable.

 

[mcpesq817]

Unfortunately bonsai vendors are sadly lacking in most of the country. Which brings up the expense of going to visit one and the almost mandatory compunction to buy something; especially after expending the resources to get there in the first place, even if the material sucks.

I can understand that, but there are a number of good online vendors that I've bought from that I've had fantastic experiences with.

 

[Vance Wood]

I can understand that, but there are a number of good online vendors that I've bought from that I've had fantastic experiences with.

That's good. But I would, myself, not recomend an on line vendor if I had not bought something from them and I don't buy anything I can't put my hands on and look at myself. That's just me. For that reason I would not necessarily recomend a newbie to do what I would not. I know there are a few reliable vendors out there but again, you are buying sight unseen.

New people have the cards stacked against them as it is, I would still recomend they get into a club and make at least their first choice from a local nursery. This is for two reasons: Cost from a local is going to be under $50, I would hope, and the material should be hardy in their climate. Everyone looking into the books desires a Japanese Black Pine or a Japanese White Pine or a Shimpaku Juniper. With the exception of the Juniper, the two Pines are difficult enough for someone with experience in the proper climate zones without compounding those problems with climate issues and a beginners lack of proper care.

Beginners, unless they personally know someone in bonsai that is willing to help them, suffer from a two-levle form of ignorance. They don't know and they don't know they don't know. They then get advised to buy some good stuff from a local bonsai dealer (assuming there is one within a hundred miles), they don't know what to look for and they have no clue what is capable of taking the kind of negelt the beginner is likely to impart. So they go out and spend a lot more money than they could have, should have and would have had they bought something to shoot out of a cannon, light on fire, or try to make a bonsai out of it.

I also know the argument: If they don't have good material to work with they get discouraged and quit. The other side of that argument is if the go out and buy a bunch of expensive "Pre_Bonsai" and it/they all die the become discouraged and quit. The difference is obvious. The one cost a couple of dollars the other substantially more. I try not to be guilty of thinking like the government; It is easy to spend other people's money.

 

[Gene Deci]

Nobody mentions collecting. For bonsai enthusiasts who like to work with native species it is really the only alternative. The local material avalable from nurseries (either bonsai or regular) is too limited. With a little effort put into learning what is worth collecting, it is only a matter of time spent looking to find some excellent stuff in the wild. And you can not beat the price. So here is a proposition: If 99% of wild stuff is not suitable for bonsai isn't the 1% that has real potential pre-bonsai?

 

[Bill S]

Vance good post, Gene you too, the biggest issue there is doing it properly, many think you just take a shovel and go digging, again a good case for if you can find a club it behooves you.

This may be a point to change thrust a bit, maybe a good way to solve this mystery is to push the club aspect( realizing it's also not a viable option for some), working with someone who already figured out how to avoid mistakes is huge, again a common theme of saving time, it's a valuable comodity for me.

 

[HotAction]

I tried to make a simple list to help keep everything straight.


bonsai stock- any tree that is purchased/grown with the intent of becoming a bonsai someday (usually requires major work-most or our trees fit this description)$$-$$$

pre-bonsai- A tree that has been styled and wired several/many times, requires refinement, no major pruning/cutting left (some of us have these, many do not)$$$$
Dave

Back to my original proposed definition(s):

I think the problem is lack of terminology. For those who wonder why we even talk about this, Vance hit the nail on the head. Mainly it is so the more experienced can better help the less experienced be more successful at bonsai. It is hard to help others, when we have trouble explaining to each other. For that reason, at the very least, I believe this discussion is worth while.

I proposed that pre-bonsai is much closer to a "finished" product than most of the general opinion. For me, bonsai stock represents all those plants, whatever the origin, that get treated for a future life as a bonsai. Keep in mind, some will be good and others poor examples.

When I choose a tree from a landscape nursery, it transforms from a landscape plant into a piece of bonsai stock. I then spend time, not growing it into a bonsai, but into a better piece of bonsai stock. These techniques are not the same as I use to grow pre-bonsai into bonsai.
Once the stock is better, I still don't try to grow a bonsai, I try to grow a pre-bonsai. Once again, a different set of strategy and technique is used. Once I get it to pre-bonsai stage, then the techniques you read about in the old books comes into play. I am not really at that last stage yet, but some are getting close. Well, that is the general idea, for me anyway.

Earlier, I posted two trees. To me, one is bonsai stock, while the other is a pre-bonsai.
For those who prefer to create their own trees, I can understand not buying pre-bonsai. That doesn't mean that buying purposefuly grown bonsai stock shouldn't be an option to consider. It is a great way to lean on the experience of others by using their canvas, and painting whatever you like.

Dave

 

[HotAction]

Here again without knowing the provenance I cannot tell you for sure. I would say it is probably worked on by someone as a bonsai, most nurseries I have known would not have put a tree in a pot like you show in your example. If that assumption is correct it would qualify as pre-bonsai. However regardless of source (ruling out some exorbitant price), I would grab it in a minute. It's a good tree with more than great possibilities. The trunk has great movement, there is dead wood in the right places and the growth is workable. Personally I have seen so called finished bonsai that are not this good. It just needs a little tweaking assuming the roots are good and manageable.

Curious, as to what you feel is exorbitant for either example. I'll tell you they did come from a bonsai specific nursery.

Dave