Nursery stock juniper

I have to tell you that I like the back trunk better than the current front, I think that for me that is what is missing on the current front side is a bit of rugged interest.

I very much agree with you that the front is missing interest, and you are not the first person to say that they liked the back better.

However, it is hard to see the "stance" of the tree in the pictures. If the back were used, it would be leaning very much away from the viewer in a way that could not easily be corrected without heavy bending.

Deadwood interest will come in the front, it will just take a couple of years.

Cheers
 
You guys in the Yamadori/Pre-bonsai world are right but I don't know if you realize that sometimes you come off as a bunch of elitists. Just an observation.

Sorry if I came off that way, I am not trying to. I've just seen so many people fill their backyards with what amounts to thousands of dollars of nursery material. And not one bonsai. Some of these people are OK with that, but some are downright frustrated and fed up with working on shitty material. I am one of the latter. I did my time with nursery stock, and now find that it can no longer provide what I want in bonsai. If this comes of as elitist, my bad. Really its just me trying to do the best I can (and help others avoid making the same mistakes I have made) in this amazing hobby.
 
Sorry if I came off that way, I am not trying to. I've just seen so many people fill their backyards with what amounts to thousands of dollars of nursery material. And not one bonsai. Some of these people are OK with that, but some are downright frustrated and fed up with working on shitty material. I am one of the latter. I did my time with nursery stock, and now find that it can no longer provide what I want in bonsai. If this comes of as elitist, my bad. Really its just me trying to do the best I can (and help others avoid making the same mistakes I have made) in this amazing hobby.

I apologize for kind of hijacking your post here, that was not my intention either. You talk about making mistakes. I agree here it is always better to try and teach people about making mistake and or avoiding them. However; if it were not for all of the experience with nursery stock and knowing what you know now, if you had gone into the beautiful and expensive world of Yamadori do you think you would have had the confidence in your ability and eye to do a Yamadore justice without the help from someone who has been there?

The reason many nursery tree grabbers have the problem you have pointed out is due to the lack of a teacher. They don't know what they are looking for, they choose the wrong material, and then they are unsure what to do with it. Most are learning from doing as I did, for the most part, by myself. What makes it frustrating is being told that what you are doing and the way you are doing it will lead now where. The ugly part, and the part many who find obtaining other material easily, hard to understand, is the fact for very many of us we have only two choices: One; do bonsai from nursery material or Two; don't do bonsai at all.

I have heard this argument as well: "Well; if someone really wanted to do bonsai they would find a way to obtain good material". In this case referring to Yamadori and pre-bonsai. I was rewarded with this comment from someone who is no longer doing bonsai.

I know you were not trying to be an elitist, or have you ever been. As far as I am concerned you have put in the hard work and effort over time to not have to explain your choices or judge others for theirs.
 
I don't think anyone has the right to criticize someone else's methods of doing and making bonsai. Only the end product should be "constructively" critiqued.

If you have the knack for finding that one in a thousand at the nursery, that is just as cool (if not more so) than shelling out the bucks for someone else's work in growing it, or digging it. I have done both, and neither one is better than the other, but one is much harder to obtain the resultant "good" bonsai with.

I do entirely believe that working with nursery stock taught me many things about what not to do... As did my early collecting...

Why must there be only one way? Why must we have only one set of rules?
 
I don't think anyone has the right to criticize someone else's methods of doing and making bonsai. Only the end product should be "constructively" critiqued.

If you have the knack for finding that one in a thousand at the nursery, that is just as cool (if not more so) than shelling out the bucks for someone else's work in growing it, or digging it. I have done both, and neither one is better than the other, but one is much harder to obtain the resultant "good" bonsai with.

I do entirely believe that working with nursery stock taught me many things about what not to do... As did my early collecting...

Why must there be only one way? Why must we have only one set of rules?

I agree, we should not have one set of rules. But every body clings to their own set of rules and tries to degrade someone else's set of rules. It seems it is sort of a self justification technique. Really where it should go is bonsai without caveate. In other words this would be a good bonsai if----Bla,Bla,Bla so on and so forth. I guess it would be best if things were butless,---- but then what we we sit on? Sorry I couldn't resist the opportunity to LOL
 
Nice tree--great development.
In the vein of the conversation, one thing I have noticed about bonsai fiends(or any "collector"), is that the impulse to grow or have bonsai and do artistry is often overwealmed by the impulse to collect MORE for the sake of , well, more, and many times justified by the material being cheap.

One can just collect trees in pots to the point of being overwhelmed. I am overwhelmed with chores for many trees that frankly suck and they consume time I could devote to trees that have a longer term more beautiful future.

I do agree with Vance in that if one feels up enough stuff quality and fun material can be had without great expense. Descerning quality of any stock for bonsai(short or long term, big, small or otherwise) is a craft in it self but disipline as to what you want to spend your time doing is a a character thing--from the darkly clouded realm of the psycological. This is where I tend to fail.
 
Really where it should go is bonsai without caveate. In other words this would be a good bonsai if----Bla,Bla,Bla so on and so forth. I guess it would be best if things were butless

Not sure if I'm understanding you correctly... but are you saying you would prefer it if there were no criticism in the bonsai community?
 
Not sure if I'm understanding you correctly... but are you saying you would prefer it if there were no criticism in the bonsai community?

Absolutely not, just the kind of criticism that borders on character assassination in condemning someone's work on the basis of something other than the work itself. The automatic assumption that something cannot be good (or bad) because of a subjective judgment on source as opposed to an objective judgment on results. Your tee is a perfect example. What has happened with your tree has absolutely nothing to do with where it came from.

It does however have everything to do with what you have done with it. A person in the position that I find myself realizes that the nursery concept must be supported if bonsai is going to survive. Your tree is perhaps a better example of the argument in that it isn't so much the material as it is the artist. It's obvious to me you are a better artist than I. The trees that I show should not be a condemnation of the material but instead the ham-fisted person that designed them that way-----ME.
 
good on you vance for coming to this realization. it must have been difficult but i think you just made yourself twice as good an artist before this post.


Absolutely not, just the kind of criticism that borders on character assassination in condemning someone's work on the basis of something other than the work itself. The automatic assumption that something cannot be good (or bad) because of a subjective judgment on source as opposed to an objective judgment on results. Your tee is a perfect example. What has happened with your tree has absolutely nothing to do with where it came from.

It does however have everything to do with what you have done with it. A person in the position that I find myself realizes that the nursery concept must be supported if bonsai is going to survive. Your tree is perhaps a better example of the argument in that it isn't so much the material as it is the artist. It's obvious to me you are a better artist than I. The trees that I show should not be a condemnation of the material but instead the ham-fisted person that designed them that way-----ME.
 
Absolutely not, just the kind of criticism that borders on character assassination in condemning someone's work on the basis of something other than the work itself. The automatic assumption that something cannot be good (or bad) because of a subjective judgment on source as opposed to an objective judgment on results. Your tee is a perfect example. What has happened with your tree has absolutely nothing to do with where it came from.

It does however have everything to do with what you have done with it. A person in the position that I find myself realizes that the nursery concept must be supported if bonsai is going to survive. Your tree is perhaps a better example of the argument in that it isn't so much the material as it is the artist. It's obvious to me you are a better artist than I. The trees that I show should not be a condemnation of the material but instead the ham-fisted person that designed them that way-----ME.

Well thank you for the flattering comments. I understand your point now. But to be fair, it is much more difficult to make a good bonsai from a nursery pine than a nursery juniper. I've got one nursery mugo which I consider an excellent find, but I am still about ready to give up on it.
 
If you can give me some sort of idea what kind of problem you are having with it I might be able to offer a solution, or at least tell you that you are doing the best that can be done.
 
Sure, I will try and find some pics and start a thread. But basically my problems are that the nebari sucks... Nice trunkline though.
 
Well thank you for the flattering comments. I understand your point now. But to be fair, it is much more difficult to make a good bonsai from a nursery pine than a nursery juniper. I've got one nursery mugo which I consider an excellent find, but I am still about ready to give up on it.

That's true but only to a point. I appreciate you understanding my position.
 
Sure, I will try and find some pics and start a thread. But basically my problems are that the nebari sucks... Nice trunkline though.

I know one of the arguments against nursery trees is the Nebari. I've got news for you, you think the Nebari with a nursery tree is bad how many Yamadori Pines have you dealt with understanding that you are just getting into this aspect of the culture? In my experience the Nebari can be, and usually is, far worse just because of the growing conditions and locations that you find good Yamadori in. Think about it: If the Pine had the kind of growing conditions that allowed its roots to spread out and develop do you think the tree would be naturally stunted and exhibit the kind of things that make a Yamadori attractive? You have to be careful not to buy into too much of the hype that flys around as fact. Of course with every rule there are always the exceptions.

As far as decent material the pre-bonsai market has the other two beat. Having said that of all the pre-bonsai Pines I have seen not many of them have any quality above what I can find in a nursery with the exception of exotic species which the nursery trade is unlikely to cultivate. JWP and JBP are exceedingly rare around here in anything larger than a nursery liner or a very large garden tree.

The good thing about Mugo Pines is that they are normally shallow rooted trees and have the tendency to throw surface roots without a good deal of difficulty if they have a good medium to root into.
 
I know one of the arguments against nursery trees is the Nebari. I've got news for you, you think the Nebari with a nursery tree is bad how many Yamadori Pines have you dealt with understanding that you are just getting into this aspect of the culture? In my experience the Nebari can be, and usually is, far worse just because of the growing conditions and locations that you find good Yamadori in. Think about it: If the Pine had the kind of growing conditions that allowed its roots to spread out and develop do you think the tree would be naturally stunted and exhibit the kind of things that make a Yamadori attractive? You have to be careful not to buy into too much of the hype that flys around as fact. Of course with every rule there are always the exceptions.

As far as decent material the pre-bonsai market has the other two beat. Having said that of all the pre-bonsai Pines I have seen not many of them have any quality above what I can find in a nursery with the exception of exotic species which the nursery trade is unlikely to cultivate. JWP and JBP are exceedingly rare around here in anything larger than a nursery liner or a very large garden tree.

The good thing about Mugo Pines is that they are normally shallow rooted trees and have the tendency to throw surface roots without a good deal of difficulty if they have a good medium to root into.

Fair enough, but I would say that what a collected pine lacks in nebari, it will usually make up for in other areas, namely bark. A poor nebari is much easier to forgive on an ancient old yamadori than on a young piece of nursery material with comparatively little character.

Yes, I've only been collecting trees seriously for three years and have 0 collected pines. The only pine worth collecting that I have access to is Jack Pine, and old jack pines are not easy to collect successfully. I've collected a couple but they didn't make it. Maybe next year.
 
Fair enough, but I would say that what a collected pine lacks in nebari, it will usually make up for in other areas, namely bark. A poor nebari is much easier to forgive on an ancient old yamadori than on a young piece of nursery material with comparatively little character.

Yes, I've only been collecting trees seriously for three years and have 0 collected pines. The only pine worth collecting that I have access to is Jack Pine, and old jack pines are not easy to collect successfully. I've collected a couple but they didn't make it. Maybe next year.

I know of no one who has been able to collect Jack Pine successfully except the very young ones. I heard rumor that Candy Shirley has done it but I don't have her email. As to bark. Here is another problem you have to consider. Bark is to a great degree incumbent upon species. Mugos will never develop a bark as good as a JBP, nor as quickly, but it will produce bark. Some cultivars are better than others. Pumilio is slow to produce a good bark, Tyrolean is fairly good and some of the dwarf cultivars are even better but they have their own set of issues.

So here is another question: If collecting a tree with old looking bark is a major contender in your choice of material and trees that fit into that category are not available to you what are your options? The only native North American Pine that has as good a bark as JBP is the Ponderosa Pine. Of course Ponderosas are not without problems. Their needles are really difficult to reduce and I have never seen one that ramified well. To get this tree you have to go out West above the Plain States into, Colorado, Wyoming and maybe parts of the South West. The farther West you go the more you will encounter this tree.
 
Fair enough, but I would say that what a collected pine lacks in nebari, it will usually make up for in other areas, namely bark. A poor nebari is much easier to forgive on an ancient old yamadori than on a young piece of nursery material with comparatively little character.

Yes, I've only been collecting trees seriously for three years and have 0 collected pines. The only pine worth collecting that I have access to is Jack Pine, and old jack pines are not easy to collect successfully. I've collected a couple but they didn't make it. Maybe next year.
I have been experimenting some with Jacks and after dumping a jag of cool ones in to the compost I have found a few rules for me so far.
1) collect in spring early but active--get the duff or separate in clots out as much as possible but don't tear at the roots
2) pot "tight but deep right away" meaning make a box that is tight to the roots but make it deeper
3) don't re-pot to shallow pots--keep them tight but deeper--and do it rarely
4) durable fast draining substrate
5) avoid limy water
5) only late summer/fall fert otherwise they will be course and curly--grow slow
6) collect only the coolest so you don't have to grow on much
See bad pic of developing jack I have had for long time10-18-11 099.jpg
 
I know of no one who has been able to collect Jack Pine successfully except the very young ones.

There are a number of Jack pine bonsai and raw material in the Toronto club who's age would be measured in centuries. Marty Schmalenberg has some too apparently, which also have Canadian roots. But everyone knows they are difficult to get established.
 
As to Jacks that have been collected and grown, most I think are in Canada. Jerry V. of Toronto had some good ones but I believe mortality and long term decline plagued him too. Jacks are liked by borers Iv'e found.

Lenz and I collected some Jacks with Jerry V. off a rock-topped mountain in Canada many years ago. Jerry hired a kid from the motel as his tree slave--very comical. Alas all but one (one thats in the ground) expired and Lenz had poor luck with them too.

Systematically getting all the original soil out and free draining mixes seem to be the key as is resisting over manipulation. I would like to find some good stone bound Jacks so I can suffer some more. I would much rather find stone bound larches though--much easier--if only I could find them here in the US, rock-bound that is. Jacks are a pain.
 
I have been experimenting some with Jacks and after dumping a jag of cool ones in to the compost I have found a few rules for me so far.
1) collect in spring early but active--get the duff or separate in clots out as much as possible but don't tear at the roots
2) pot "tight but deep right away" meaning make a box that is tight to the roots but make it deeper
3) don't re-pot to shallow pots--keep them tight but deeper--and do it rarely
4) durable fast draining substrate
5) avoid limy water
5) only late summer/fall fert otherwise they will be course and curly--grow slow
6) collect only the coolest so you don't have to grow on much
See bad pic of developing jack I have had for long timeView attachment 20291

Thanks Crust - really, this is valuable information to me. Some of this is definitely not intuitive. Filed away. The only Jacks I tried to collect were in the fall, and they were sort of a test run. Needless to say, dead.

Yours looks like it has some potential. I bet you have toyed with the idea of cutting off the longer trunk?

I will post this article here just in case there are people who haven't seen it, since Jack pine info is rare. http://torontobonsai.org/Archives/horticulture/jackpine.htm

Here is one I hope to take a shot at next year.

Pv3ev.jpg

(kidding)
 
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