So everyone got/getting their Fauci Ouchie? What are your thoughts?

[rockm]

Your post was pretty polite, so I'll respond.

Personally, I choose not to sneeze on people, keep the maximum social distance available to me whenever possible, and to compulsively disinfect my hands/ not touch my face at work. This serves not only to prevent the transmission of COVID, but other illnesses as well.
Fortunately, this plan does seem to be working for me so far. I've managed not to get COVID, or any kind of illness at all, despite regularly interfacing with the public per my line of work.
I don't disagree with your choice to get the vaccine. In fact, I think you did it for the right reasons. I simply don't believe that the MRNA vaccine is effective at stopping the spread of COVID, and that the risks likely outweigh the benefits, but that's also my opinion.



No, that's incorrect. COVID19 has been enormously politicized.
I do agree with you that whatever the politicians are shouting doesn't matter-- Most of them are shouting about what a big deal this is, and how we all need to give up our rights to protect against it.
I'm going to disregard all of that fearmongering, continue to take proper precautions, not get sick, not take an experimental vaccine that could leave me infertile, maimed or dead, and go back to bonsai.



"Scientific" argument: "Vaccines work. Therefore, you need to get vaccinated so that our vaccines will work! Look bro, just get injected. Trust the experts who were paid by Pfizer, a company which has never before successfully launched a vaccine, or by J&J-- a company that has had multiple billions of dollars in lawsuits."

How about no? I'm never going to take an unsafe vaccine. Maybe in 25 years when they're safe. 'Til then, no.

You must not have been around when the polio vaccine was new. It had a one-year trial, tracked by pen and paper by thousands of volunteers before roll out. It's been almost 70 years since the first polio vaccine was administered. Hysterical fears then too, proven false by time. You probably have had a polio vaccines, right?

The Covid vaccine has had more testing and proven results, with exponentially larger sample groups and vanishingly small reactions. The polio vaccine uses actual inactivated virus to prevent disease. mRNA vaccines don't use virus. The technology have been honed for decades. They've been developed since the 1970's. One of the reasons the Covid vaccines were so quickly developed was because of that earlier development period. Covid's RNA was inserted into the mRNA process.

Fears are inevitable with any new health technology. Allowing it to run rampant is silly. Reading anti-vaccine propaganda (and all your arguments against it--from the doubts about successful launches and lawsuits--are just that--amplified BS from anti-vaccine groups with agendas of their own).

At least be informed by credible sources:

The Long History of mRNA Vaccines | Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health

A look at how this vaccine technology has been in the works for decades.

publichealth.jhu.edu

 

[Michigan Tree Murderer]

Me walking into this thread.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

You must not have been around when the polio vaccine was new.

Ironically, we are now facing a societal medical emergency because people are refusing to get a polio vaccine.

If only Darwin were alive. I'd live to hear his thoughts, LOL!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Ironically, we are now facing a societal medical emergency because people are refusing to get a polio vaccine.

If only Darwin were alive. I'd live to hear his thoughts, LOL!

My friend, we're facing so, so much more than just polio.
The hospital I work at just created twelve new protocols for emerging diseases in a single month. Humanity is not ready. We haven't learned a thing.

In all seriousness, Darwin could very well be an antivax kind of guy. Because you know.. If you can't survive the environment you're in, you're not fit for it.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

In all seriousness, Darwin could very well be an antivax kind of guy. Because you know.. If you can't survive the environment you're in, you're not fit for it.

Yeah... you may be right. It is only a matter of time until something really nasty breaks out.

Kinda like Dutch Elm disease in the U.S. It wiped out 99%+ of all American elms. But not 100%. Isolated individuals survived, even as the entire forest around them perished. From these few isolated individuals, they have now created a decent number of American elm cultivars that are moderately to highly resistant to Dutch elm disease, and the American elm is making a comeback. A similar program is running to try to save the American Chestnut.

 

[shinmai]

First and last post on this subject, because I came here for bonsai rather than politics. I will never get this vaccine, because it absolutely reeks of Agent Orange/ Thalidomide.
Does anybody else remember these scandals? People these days seem to think it is impossible for the government to make mistakes, or to lie to us, and that is absolutely not true.
Our government is run by humans-- Not "experts," and not Gods. They are people just like you and me, who are capable of succumbing to fear and incentive alike... and, we pay them to be there. Therefore, no matter what they say, or which corporations they do/ do not take money from, they are all self-interested. Understanding this, the unprecedentedly quick mass-adoption of this highly experimental, highly unstable new form of gene therapy (MRNA vaccination) is questionable at best, dubious at worst.

If you look at both the real and circumstantial data, and disregard the many paid, big-pharma shills masquerading as "experts" online and in the media, you will quickly come to notice side-effects which are already proving to be fatal. These include, but are not limited to, advanced and unusual blood clots in otherwise perfectly healthy individuals, as well as the development of cardiac issues in both young children and the athletic alike. There are many other side effects, and surely yet more to emerge, but these are among the most significant as of now. Much of this seems to do with the fact of these "vaccines" turning the human body into a sort of spike protein production facility. The effects of spike proteins on the human body is understudied, but may be disastrous to the human genome. There is also something to be said in that, within in the field of medical science, two years is almost no time at all. Who knows just how bad these side-effects will begin to look in 10 or 20 years? There will likely be class-action lawsuits against the government, which at the time was attempting to force a culture of mass corporate adoption via constant threats of a vaccine mandate. There is an especial notice to be made of the fact that religious exemptions have, notoriously, been ignored throughout this process of forcing a culture of vaccination.

In conclusion: The fact of the government so dramatically overstepping its bounds gives it to be likely, in my mind, that this vaccine was distributed without good intentions. It is unsafe for human consumption, and therefore I will not take it. I will remain a "pureblood," as it were.

Thalidomide was a West German drug, for God’s sake, and my brother just died of Agent Orange-related glioblastoma. To connect either of these to the vaccine is idiotic and asinine. It’s an insult to everyone’s intelligence, and simply ludicrous.

I wish you luck with this ‘pure blood’ idiocy. Like Eastwood said in “Unforgiven”, “Kid, we’ve all got it comin’.”

 

[shinmai]

My friend, we're facing so, so much more than just polio.
The hospital I work at just created twelve new protocols for emerging diseases in a single month. Humanity is not ready. We haven't learned a thing.

In all seriousness, Darwin could very well be an antivax kind of guy. Because you know.. If you can't survive the environment you're in, you're not fit for it.

Well, he never promised that evolution would be painless. Take, for example, people who ride motorcycles without helmets. Eventually, they self-select out of the gene pool, but it doesn’t appear to be an easy experience.

 

[leatherback]

Well, he never promised that evolution would be painless. Take, for example, people who ride motorcycles without helmets. Eventually, they self-select out of the gene pool, but it doesn’t appear to be an easy experience.

Darwin Awards: Evolutionary Action

Darwin Awards: Vote for the Award Nominees! The Darwin Awards commemorate the (remains of) individuals who contribute to the improvement of our gene pool by removing themselves from it. Enter this portal for stories from the Darwin Awards.

darwinawards.com

 

[rockm]

My friend, we're facing so, so much more than just polio.
The hospital I work at just created twelve new protocols for emerging diseases in a single month. Humanity is not ready. We haven't learned a thing.

In all seriousness, Darwin could very well be an antivax kind of guy. Because you know.. If you can't survive the environment you're in, you're not fit for it.

I think that's the thing. We stopped polio with a vaccine. We were smart and effective. It was in the corral. It wasn't a threat FOR DECADES. Irrefutable proof that vaccines work. Unfortunately, they may have worked too well. The horrors (paralysis and death) of that disease faded as people forgot about the disease and took it for granted it wasn't a problem anymore. That lethal team--Stupidity, ignorance, indifference and arrogance--let it out again, pure and simple. "I don't believe in corrals. They're dangerous and experimental..." Stupid will be the end of us.

 

[Carol 83]

Thalidomide was a West German drug, for God’s sake, and my brother just died of Agent Orange-related glioblastoma. To connect either of these to the vaccine is idiotic and asinine. It’s an insult to everyone’s intelligence, and simply ludicrous.

I wish you luck with this ‘pure blood’ idiocy. Like Eastwood said in “Unforgiven”, “Kid, we’ve all got it comin’.”

My sincere sympathy for your loss.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

This serves not only to prevent the transmission of COVID, but other illnesses as well.

Washing hands does not prevent disease transmission, it simply reduces it.

Just like vaccines do not prevent (100%) you from getting ill. It reduces the risk, and reduces the severity of symptoms.

Even smallpox and polio vaccines are not 100% effective. They are just effective ENOUGH to break the chain of community transmission - the virus burns out before it can find another suitable host.

So... if you do get sick with Covid, and you have a severe case because you aren't vaccinated, are you assuming society has a responsibility to provide you with expensive medical care?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

It does not prevent disease transmission, it simply reduces it.

Just like vaccines do not prevent (100%) you from getting ill. It reduces the risk, and reduces the severity of symptoms.

Even smallpox and polio vaccines are not 100% effective. They are just effective ENOUGH to break the chain of community transmission - the virus burns out before it can find another suitable host.

So... if you do get sick with Covid, and you have a severe case because you aren't vaccinated, are you assuming society has a responsibility to provide you with expensive medical care?

Don't get me wrong, the part below is an observation, not an opinion of a stance..
What we're experiencing right now with high vaccination numbers is that covid becomes symptomless for some. Still transmittable, still deadly to some, but silent in a lot of people. That makes it a tad bit more dangerous for the people with immune issues.

The part below is an opinion that I erased because it would get heated very fast.
Let's just say I'm kind of done with elderly being reckless and that I wouldn't mind if those reckless people dropped like flies.

 

[Neo_Rokkenjima]

I am surprised that my post is still being quoted nearly a month after I made it. Some replies have been at least reasonably polite, albeit condescending-- Others, not so much. I had never intended to post in this thread again, precisely because I knew that this was going to happen. I recognize that this is an issue which vaccinated people are extremely emotionally-charged about. Even if I respond, my responses will be summarily disregarded, or ineffectively rebutted as is convenient for the writer in question.

That said, I think it's important that I do respond to this last one, because I am not going to sit around and be accused of insulting peoples' intelligence simply for stating a comparative opinion online.

Thalidomide was a West German drug, for God’s sake, and my brother just died of Agent Orange-related glioblastoma. To connect either of these to the vaccine is idiotic and asinine. It’s an insult to everyone’s intelligence, and simply ludicrous.

I wish you luck with this ‘pure blood’ idiocy. Like Eastwood said in “Unforgiven”, “Kid, we’ve all got it comin’.”

Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm truly sorry to hear about your loss. I couldn't imagine the pain you must be feeling, losing your brother. I have lost parents before, but I love my kid brother dearly. My heart goes out to you.
Calling me an idiot on the internet, however, will certainly not change anything. If it makes you feel better, or if you think it makes you morally good, then you may call me an idiot until your face turns blue, but know that your time spent insulting me is completely pointless. I am not taking the vaccine at this time, period.

What is the point of all this? Why should I risk my quality of life by injecting an under-studied, risky drug into my veins, so that I can be inoculated (unsuccessfully) against an ordinarily non-fatal illness? Why open myself up to a plethora of varyingly debilitating, or even lethal, known side-effects... as well as the vast, unimaginable ocean of possible unknown, or deliberately non-disclosed side-effects? I just don't see the point. It would be one thing if we were talking about an effective and safe vaccine that has been out for decades, which has an excellent reputation. We are not, and the companies in question producing these vaccines have horrendous reputations. This has "car crash waiting to happen" written all over it. In that sense, with the utmost respect paid to your family, I don't view this vaccine business as being dramatically different than Agent Orange/ Thalidomide-- the disastrous and tragic side effects of which we did not come to understand until years and decades after they had already been deployed. You and I could debate the specifics of this comparison further, but my point stands that I am justified in wanting to wait to take anything until more information comes out... And I should argue that, in light of the aforementioned circumstances regarding concerns of merit, this would be the smartest course of action to take.

Further, to refer back to your own quote: If we've all got it coming-- and we all certainly do-- then again, what is the point of taking this vaccine?

You may disagree with me on one or several points, and you are free to think what you will about me or my level of intelligence. But, I can't help but think these threads are simply acting as a validation farm for the people who've already chosen to become vaccinated. People want to feel good about their decisions; that is totally normal, proven human behavior. Likewise, vaccinated people want to feel good about getting the vaccine which they were told to get, even though they must have known they were taking on risks when they did take it. I think this is why so many of you are so damn rude towards people like myself, who choose to remain unvaccinated: You took a risk because you were asked to, and are permanently locked in to the choice you have made, whereas I am taking a cautious approach and waiting before doing anything. I would also be terribly anxious and upset in your position, if I saw other people refusing to do a thing which I was instructed by the government to do swiftly, out of a concern for health safety. The anxiety alone would be so tremendous as to cause me to become bedridden. I would probably be questioning peoples' intelligence for not complying immediately, and finding myself getting angry at these people on the internet as a coping mechanism.

That is precisely why I've chosen not to be in your position. I don't want to go to Hell holding hands with everyone. If my sense costs me later, then so be it. In fact, I'd love nothing more than to be proven wrong. I haven't staked my pride on this issue, like so many of you have, not only because I do not purport to be the medical expert that always does the first thing the government tells them to do-- but mostly because I want the best thing for everyone. Were I to be proven wrong, many people who chose to be vaccinated (which is a great many of you) will be good and healthy many years from now! That is what I want: For everyone to be happy and healthy, and for my faith in government to be restored. I am okay with being wrong today if this ends up being the final outcome of our dialectic, ten or twenty years from now, when the science is truly in and unable to be buried by frantic media and government shills working for Big Pharma.

And if I should be proven right... God help us.

 

[Rivian]

anti-vaccine propaganda ... BS from anti-vaccine groups with agendas

"Only my enemies have agendas and use propaganda"

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I think this is why so many of you are so damn rude towards people like myself, who choose to remain unvaccinated: You took a risk because you were asked to, and are permanently locked in to the choice you have made, whereas I am taking a cautious approach and waiting before doing anything. I would also be terribly anxious and upset in your position, if I saw other people refusing to do a thing which I was instructed by the government to do swiftly, out of a concern for health safety. The anxiety alone would be so tremendous as to cause me to become bedridden. I would probably be questioning peoples' intelligence for not complying immediately, and finding myself getting angry at these people on the internet as a coping mechanism.

Well I can honestly say that I hope I am not coming off as rude. Some of my friends have decided not to get vaccinated, and I respect their decision, even if I don't agree with it. Everything has a cost or a risk. I like to mountain bike. Every time I mountain bike I am taking a risk. But I decide to take the risk because I believe the rewards outweigh the risks. Every vaccine has a risk. I chose to get vaccinated - as much for myself as for people around me (I have elderly parents). But no vaccine is perfect, and if you are waiting for confirmation that there is no risk you will be waiting forever. So I took the risk.

However there are two moral issues that come into play. First, that if someone isn't vaccinated, their risk of severe illness is much greater, and the costs of treating them are much greater. I don't think it's rude to point that out, since it is a fact. And second, vaccines work on a societal level to protect EVERYONE. They aren't just about protecting yourself, they are about establishing herd immunity and protecting all of society. In a strange convoluted way that is one of the arguments I hear for why some parents aren't vaccinating their children against childhood diseases: "we don't have to vaccinate our kids, because everyone else is vaccinating theirs". It is a sad argument, in my opinion, but there are a lot of people who feel that way.

I haven't staked my pride on getting vaccinated. In fact I find it interesting to observe the demographics of those who are and who are not getting vaccinated. I find it fascinating.

 

[leatherback]

an ordinarily non-fatal illness?

Idiot

 

[rockm]

"Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm truly sorry to hear about your loss. I couldn't imagine the pain you must be feeling, losing your brother. I have lost parents before, but I love my kid brother dearly. My heart goes out to you.
Calling me an idiot on the internet, however, will certainly not change anything. If it makes you feel better, or if you think it makes you morally good, then you may call me an idiot until your face turns blue, but know that your time spent insulting me is completely pointless. I am not taking the vaccine at this time, period."

I agree, you're an idiot. You have no idea what you're talking about with this nonsense. You use Thalidomide and Agent Orange side effects as some kind of equivalency in the negative effects of a vaccine. That is a pretty dimwitted comparison. Thalidomide was not created for the application in pregnant women that resulted in birth defects. It was created as a sedative, but was then used to treat nausea in cancer patients, then nausea in pregnant women. It was used "off label" for the application that resulted in birth defects.

Agent Orange wasn't developed for use on humans. It was developed as a plant defoliant. It caused significant health issues and deaths in humans because they weren't protected from exposure to a toxic chemical not meant for human consumption.

Vaccines, for God's sake, have been developed for use in humans. This vaccine has been tested more than the polio vaccine. You have had the polio vaccine, or are you "taking a cautious approach" to THAT disease as well?

Coronavirus is not some form of bad flu that is mostly mild. I've lost friends and neighbors to it. I have relatives who have been stricken down for months with it. I have relatives with significant health issues who have only been sick for a week or more because the vaccine blunted the full force of the infection. So, forgive me if I'm rude, self-righteous and irritated at people like yourself who are "taking the cautious" road and keeping their options open (what ever the fuck that means).

 

[Neo_Rokkenjima]

Well I can honestly say that I hope I am not coming off as rude. Some of my friends have decided not to get vaccinated, and I respect their decision, even if I don't agree with it. Everything has a cost or a risk. I like to mountain bike. Every time I mountain bike I am taking a risk. But I decide to take the risk because I believe the rewards outweigh the risks. Every vaccine has a risk. I chose to get vaccinated - as much for myself as for people around me (I have elderly parents). But no vaccine is perfect, and if you are waiting for confirmation that there is no risk you will be waiting forever. So I took the risk.

However there are two moral issues that come into play. First, that if someone isn't vaccinated, their risk of severe illness is much greater, and the costs of treating them are much greater. I don't think it's rude to point that out, since it is a fact. And second, vaccines work on a societal level to protect EVERYONE. They aren't just about protecting yourself, they are about establishing herd immunity and protecting all of society. In a strange convoluted way that is one of the arguments I hear for why some parents aren't vaccinating their children against childhood diseases: "we don't have to vaccinate our kids, because everyone else is vaccinating theirs". It is a sad argument, in my opinion, but there are a lot of people who feel that way.

I haven't staked my pride on getting vaccinated. In fact I find it interesting to observe the demographics of those who are and who are not getting vaccinated. I find it fascinating.

Not at all sir, I think you've been perfectly polite and that your arguments are reasonable. I respectfully disagree that I fall into the same category as people who don't vaccinate their children using time-tested medicine "because reasons," as it were. It would be better to simply say that I disagree that the COVID vaccines being currently offered are the medical equal of other, more medically-tenured vaccines.

Regarding the moral issues at play: I feel it is better not to fund hasty science, bully people into submission (of course, I am not accusing you of this sort of behavior,) or submit my rights to an emotionally-charged majority of people whom would see those rights erased for the sake of achieving a primitive and ineffectual sense of security (Remember: Even if 100% are vaccinated, 100% of people will still be able to contract the virus, under current conditions. The comparison to past Polio/ Smallpox epidemics is therefore not valid in my mind.)

I can keep people safe by taking my vitamins (including a 1000% DV of C megadose per day,) keeping a sneeze guard between myself and my customers, using Purell after every social interaction with a customer at my place of work, not touching my face, taking off when other people at work get sick, isolating whenever prudent, et cetera. These are proven ways which I can contribute to the cause of not spreading illness. But, these simple efforts just aren't enough for certain individuals. They are ready to strap on the jackboots and persecute every single person who does not comply to their way of thinking. I fail to understand why they would think this approach would convince more people to get vaccinated, instead of hating them, but it's not my job to understand them.

Either way, it feels refreshing to be able to respectfully agree to disagree with someone on this issue, so I thank you for your response.

View attachment 450990
Idiot

So, you're saying that just a hair over 1% of cases are fatal (many of which have been mis-attributed to COVID, or involved a co-morbidity with other conditions such as old age, obesity, etc...)
...And, you specifically quoted the word "ordinarily" when you quoted my argument.
I still wouldn't want to get it, but...
Thank you so much for proving my point.

 

[Neo_Rokkenjima]

Coronavirus is not some form of bad flu that is mostly mild. I've lost friends and neighbors to it. I have relatives who have been stricken down for months with it. I have relatives with significant health issues who have only been sick for a week or more because the vaccine blunted the full force of the infection.

The numbers don't pan out on that first statement but, even if they did, my other arguments would still be valid.

You seem to lack any semblance of an ability not to generalize people into broad categories, and I do not appreciate that you are taking your grief out on me. For one thing, I didn't sneeze on your grandmother or your neighbor, and I-- unlike many people who have been vaccinated-- take every due caution not to get sick or spread illness to others. I am not going to take drugs because you are upset at somebody else. If you are upset at me for telling the damn truth, well, I'm still not taking them. I am sorry you lost people who you were close to, but the vaccine would not have necessarily saved them because of how all viruses manifest differently between individuals. It wasn't anybody's fault they got the plague. I think if you try to let go of that idea, you might be able to move on.

So, forgive me if I'm rude, self-righteous and irritated at people like yourself who are "taking the cautious" road and keeping their options open (what ever the fuck that means).

In other words: "Forgive me for looking down my nose at you, but I'm right and upset, and you're just so wrong that I can't understand your kind."

I'll spell it out for you, because you are acting like a rude imbecile, and have repeatedly attacked me in this thread:
It means watching the lemming to see how far it falls when it jumps off the cliff, listening for a splat, and making an educated decision about whether to follow in pursuit or ultimately opting not to jump. You are the lemming in this example, so it shouldn't matter to you if I take a decade or 500 to follow you. Is this really so hard for you to understand? No, it isn't. You're being deliberately pretentious and pretending not to know what I'm talking about for the sake of talking down to me, like a child out of high school, because you're upset with the world around you. Do you think you are making any progress in your life by calling me stupid on the internet?

Give up on this embarrassing nonsense immediately and let go of your anger. It isn't your life's purpose to shill for big pharma on the internet. You were meant for greater things, and I'm not being being ironic when I say that. I know for a fact that you have a great knowledge of trees, because we've interacted outside of this thread before. I don't hate you, and I think it would be best if you tried to let go of your issues with other people regarding this subject. You will never live in a world where everyone is vaccinated, and you are going to have to deal with it and learn to get along with people who differ from you.

 

[Njyamadori]

I love trees