BVF Shimpaku critique

Bananaman said:

Fine, everyone here wants to see trees, post your best tree, and self critique it.

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Ok, here is my best teee, in its best condition after being groomed for two years in preparation for Nationals. Here is my critique. You are all welcome to critique it too, and my response will be a simple “thank you”.

1. The pot is well matched, but slightly too big for exhibition.
2. Where the deadwood meets the soil and the live vein, it has a hollow. This is distracting. Overall the trunk has good flare, good movement, and the live veins are well-defined all the way to the top. However, I removed a branch from the center live vein, and the scar is disruptive to the visual flow, and the swelling is causing the two live veins to touch. I will have to deal with that. The back live vein is weak, only feeding one branch, and is important, so I will need to keep it strong.
3. I could wish the deadwood was more dynamic, or had better jins showing. The right Jin has interest, but it is obscured by foliage.
4. The foliage pads are more clearly defined on the left than the right.
5. Overall, the tree’s design is safe and predictable; conservative. I think if I had more junipers of this caliber, I may play it less safe on styling.

It's a lovely tree but my analysis :

The silhouette only becomes asymmetrical when your eye rests on the bottom left pad. I think it would be interesting to have areas where the tree's outline wasn't so predictable (pads dipping in or extending out of the silhouette). I think for me this is where the 'predictable' part of what you said comes into play.

I’ve always appreciated this tree, Brian. It’s very nice and I was glad to have the chance to study it in person in 2016 at the Nationals. It’s refined and healthy with carefully placed branch structure - very nice work. It’s overall appearance is that of a carefully managed juniper bonsai with precision styling in the Japanese sense. I like that styling and I like the tree - very well done.

One thing I wrestled with when looking at this tree is - does it lean to the right or does it lean to the left? For me, it’s clear - the tree leans to the right. If you project the apex down from the top of the tree it is clearly to the right of the nebari. So I think the tree leans to the right. Others see the movement to the left of the upper trunk and think the tree moves to the left. It was an interesting debate, but for me, the position of the apex relative to the nebari dictates the movement to the right on this tree.

The movement is an interesting discussion because with traditional japanese styling the key branch should be in the direction of the lean. For this tree, the key branch is on the left - opposite to the direction of movement. I see that a lot more in American styled trees than elsewhere - it certainly adds a lot of tension to the composition. But it did make me wonder - did you ever consider placing the key branch on the right?

Scott

Brian Van Fleet said:

Ok, here is my best teee, in its best condition after being groomed for two years in preparation for Nationals. Here is my critique. You are all welcome to critique it too, and my response will be a simple “thank you”.

1. The pot is well matched, but slightly too big for exhibition.
2. Where the deadwood meets the soil and the live vein, it has a hollow. This is distracting. Overall the trunk has good flare, good movement, and the live veins are well-defined all the way to the top. However, I removed a branch from the center live vein, and the scar is disruptive to the visual flow, and the swelling is causing the two live veins to touch. I will have to deal with that. The back live vein is weak, only feeding one branch, and is important, so I will need to keep it strong.
3. I could wish the deadwood was more dynamic, or had better jins showing. The right Jin has interest, but it is obscured by foliage.
4. The foliage pads are more clearly defined on the left than the right.
5. Overall, the tree’s design is safe and predictable; conservative. I think if I had more junipers of this caliber, I may play it less safe on styling.
View attachment 204113

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Is this tree going to Rochester next month, or is this from a few years ago?

I see what you are saying about the design being "safe, predictable, conservative" and agree...to a point. This is not one of those wild, deadwood in every direction junipers so the canopy style seems to match what is there trunkwise (subtle interplay of live/deadwood) pretty nicely. I'm not sure how much you could push the style on this one without it starting to look incongruent, like many of those junipers with crazy trunks/deadwood but neat little green helmets on top (except in the other direction). Maybe a little more variation in the outline of the canopy, maybe a couple less pads (or smaller pads) to let us see in...nice problem to have!

I agree with everything you said about the tree. I would kill to have that sitting on my bench and would feel that even if it never changed, I think the best has been brought out with what there was to work with. so Kudo's for that.

My only criticism yet small is the crossing live veins on the front of the trunk. The parallel pair crossing the one in the back distracts my eye right to the middle of the "X". I wish it didn't do that to me. That's what distractions do, take away from otherwise perfect trees. But that's what we strive for is this endeavor, at least some of us do. I think I speak for everyone and surly am giving the benefit of the doubt to the forum when I say, "I think we all want a tree like this on our bench" Thanks Brian.

markyscott said:

I’ve always appreciated this tree, Brian. It’s very nice and I was glad to have the chance to study it in person in 2016 at the Nationals. It’s refined and healthy with carefully placed branch structure - very nice work. It’s overall appearance is that of a carefully managed juniper bonsai with precision styling in the Japanese sense. I like that styling and I like the tree - very well done.

One thing I wrestled with when looking at this tree is - does it lean to the right or does it lean to the left? For me, it’s clear - the tree leans to the right. If you project the apex down from the top of the tree it is clearly to the right of the nebari. So I think the tree leans to the right. Others see the movement to the left of the upper trunk and think the tree moves to the left. It was an interesting debate, but for me, the position of the apex relative to the nebari dictates the movement to the right on this tree.

The movement is an interesting discussion because with traditional japanese styling the key branch should be in the direction of the lean. For this tree, the key branch is on the left - opposite to the direction of movement. I see that a lot more in American styled trees than elsewhere - it certainly adds a lot of tension to the composition. But it did make me wonder - did you ever consider placing the key branch on the right?

Scott

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Based on past experience with Kathy Shaner she would say it moves to the left.

Only because of the other comments...
Which is the greatest thing about brainstorming in this forum....

Because the DW seems more prevalent , I want to see the canopy thinner, more struggling.

But there is no way in hell I'd be able to cut off all that great foliage.

So...
Allow those veins to grow back together all the way down. Back into one. Giving it the visual "Live meat" it needs to support that wonderful, if a little broccoli, canopy.

Big Pimping!

Sorce

Brian, it’s a most excellent tree. Scott and I studied quite a bit at the last Nationals. Bjorn happened by, and I know you collaborated with him on it, and the movement, key branch, all that was discussed!

Personsally, I agree with Scott, I think it moves to the right. Not only is the apex to the right of the nebari, it appears that the apex is on a section of trunk that “is moving” to the right. The trunk moves up to the right, takes a bend left, then comes back to the right again. The base movement (right) matches the apex movement (right). Which suggests to me the key branch should be to the right.

That is the traditional Japanese preference. Many Western bonsai practitioners would prefer to have the way it is.

There is no right or wrong. Merely personal preferences.

Great tree, I’ve been lucky enough to see it a several shows. It will be fun to see it evolve over the next decade!

My assessment:
1. The pot is well matched, but slightly too big for exhibition. I think it complements the image' flutes echoing the live veins.
2. Where the deadwood meets the soil and the live vein, it has a hollow. This is distracting. Never noticed that until you brought it up.
Overall the trunk has good flare, good movement, and the live veins are well-defined all the way to the top. However, I removed a branch from the center live vein, and the scar is disruptive to the visual flow, and the swelling is causing the two live veins to touch. I will have to deal with that. Agreed, IMHO the main eye-catcher distraction the image has.The back live vein is weak, only feeding one branch, and is important, so I will need to keep it strong. If it is that low back branch, I agree It is the main if not only depth feature - very important, vital.
3. I could wish the deadwood was more dynamic, or had better jins showing. The right Jin has interest, but it is obscured by foliage. I agree. First thing I keep doing is putting my thumb over that lowest right foliage pad. I still think I want it to be gone.
4. The foliage pads are more clearly defined on the left than the right. meh
5. Overall, the tree’s design is safe and predictable; conservative. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I tend to like more dynamic images (like the lean of a bicycle cornering). Right now it is balanced because the top moves back over the base. IMHO this demands a more symmetric canopy such as it has now - very calm, very conservative, but I am comfortable with it. It it were tilted right so that the apical trunk segment is about vertical it would be more dynamic/exciting/uncomfortable. Then that lower right foliage pad would need to be gone or, I think, it would start looking 'cascady' and boring (to my current taste, anyway).

I think it is just a matter of time, not more trees of this caliber. You're still (relatively) young and so is this tree, for that matter.
Regardless, I think this is really digging for the last 1% from this tree, but maybe you get more radical. Time will tell.

Adair M said:

the key branch should be to the right.

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@Adair M and @markyscott By this comment, are you suggesting the left side should be shortened until the first right branch is the lowest, or how would this be accomplished?

Brian Van Fleet said:

Ok, here is my best teee, in its best condition after being groomed for two years in preparation for Nationals. Here is my critique. You are all welcome to critique it too, and my response will be a simple “thank you”.

1. The pot is well matched, but slightly too big for exhibition.
2. Where the deadwood meets the soil and the live vein, it has a hollow. This is distracting. Overall the trunk has good flare, good movement, and the live veins are well-defined all the way to the top. However, I removed a branch from the center live vein, and the scar is disruptive to the visual flow, and the swelling is causing the two live veins to touch. I will have to deal with that. The back live vein is weak, only feeding one branch, and is important, so I will need to keep it strong.
3. I could wish the deadwood was more dynamic, or had better jins showing. The right Jin has interest, but it is obscured by foliage.
4. The foliage pads are more clearly defined on the left than the right.
5. Overall, the tree’s design is safe and predictable; conservative. I think if I had more junipers of this caliber, I may play it less safe on styling.
View attachment 204113

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1, I like the pot, shape feels good with this tree, as it looks now, size seems fine for a show I do not mind the dept but it’s on the edge.
But that said, the foliage now to me is on the edge of being too much, however, if you would open up more having it lighter then yes this pot would feel too deep and heavy, if you plan on keeping it full as now or even fuller, this pot is very good.

2, hadn’t really noticed this, perhaps in reality it’s more easy to see but looks like minor problem now
I like the life veins on this tree, it’s not often you see a tree with several life veins on a tree this size. Don’t care about the x al sees really though it may become a problem in future when the life vein thickens so he does have a point in that it’s something to think about.

3 I also would like to see a bit more of the Jin on the right, this Jin seems nice , but perhaps opening it up a bit more and covering the base of it around the trunk is an idea.

4, looks pretty good on both sides to me
5 I think here is where other comments come into play concerning the flow, to me too the movement is to the right but it’s too soft. I would however not shorten the left, I think it would make it less interesting. I’d try to define more movement using the apex , get it more to the right. Just a bit more might be enough.
The tree feels very stable now, just a little bit more asymmetry, movement would give it something extra .

Grtz

Brian Van Fleet said:

@Adair M and @markyscott By this comment, are you suggesting the left side should be shortened until the first right branch is the lowest, or how would this be accomplished?

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Not a proposal. Let’s call it a philosophical discussion. If you were able to magically remove the lower pad on the left and reattach it on the right, would you do it?

S

markyscott said:

Not a proposal. Let’s call it a philosophical discussion. If you were able to magically remove the lower pad on the left and reattach it on the right, would you do it?

S

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No, because if pressed, I actually see this tree as moving left, and even shortened the bottom right pad a few years ago. The first live vein moves left, the center section twists in an attempt to fight the left movement, and finally, the upper trunk moves left. The left side of the foliage cascades down to the left, countering and framing the center section of trunk that is going right. What features do you and Adair see to suggest it is going more right?

The movement left or right is controversial, and some teachers place more emphasis on it than others, sometimes to the detriment of the design. Philosophically, let’s say we agree the movement is to the right and the rules dictate the “key branch” should be to the right. That would mean the left branch must be shortened, the right branch must be lengthened, or some combination of the two. Virts are tricky because we are way into nuances that photoshop can’t do, but do any of these improve the Bonsai?
Original:

Shorten left branch; a little, more, then push apex to the right:

Or lengthen the right branch until it is lower than the left, then shorten the left:

And it may not need to be said, but know I respect you and your work, and this is a friendly philosophical discussion.

Brian Van Fleet said:

What features do you and Adair see to suggest it is going more right

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I see what you’re focusing on. As a privileged observer, I saw three things that suggested rightward movement; 1) the strong movement of the basal exposed portion on the trunk to the right, 2) because a vertical line centered on the apex would intersect the soil line to the right of the trunk, and 3) because at least 2/3 of the foliage mass would be to the right of a vertical line centered on the trunk at the soil line. So despite all the twists and turns of the trunk, the apex and foliage mass are to the right of the trunk where it emerges from the soil and that suggests rightward movement to me.

There were two things that interested me in pursuing this line of discussion with you. First, it’s interesting to me that to serious hobbyists (and professionals if Al’s conjecture is right) could look at the same tree and not agree on which way it moves. Second, it’s interteresting to me that in eastern cultures, the natural inclination is to place the key branch in the direction of trunk movement while in the west it’s often the opposite.

I personally like the way your tree is styled - some of my own junipers do the same thing (I placed the key branch opposite to the direction of trunk movement). Of the pictures you provided, there were really two candidates - as it is, or the first of the verts where you removed the lower pad on the left.

Brian Van Fleet said:

No, because if pressed, I actually see this tree as moving left, and even shortened the bottom right pad a few years ago.

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Do you have a photo of the tree before you shortened the branch on the right?

Scott

markyscott said:

Not a proposal. Let’s call it a philosophical discussion. If you were able to magically remove the lower pad on the left and reattach it on the right, would you do it?

S

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I guess my question is about the Jin on the right. At some point, there was more lower foliage on the right. And the decision was made to reduce it and leave the Jin. This decision placed the key branch on the left. (Or, the bulk of the foliage, at least.)

I’m thinking that another possibility would have been to have kept that foliage, and instead reduced and jinned the left side. With the tree potted on the left side of the pot, having the bulk of the foliage positioned over the bulk of the soil seems more balanced to me.

But, it’s just as Scott says, an intellectual exercise. Both directions have their pros and cons.

Djtommy makes a good point about the sheer volume of foliage. Your challenge at this point will be maintaining the style without letting it get overgrown.

I mean, COULD you cut off the botton 1/4 of the foliage on the left? And completely restyle the tree to move to the right? Sure you could. SHOULD you? Not so easy to decide. I suppose “it depends”. The tree is successful either way.

It may turn out that this tree might live in its current styling for a decade, and then one day you’ll decide to change it up and do a makeover and let it go the other way for a decade... perhaps when it gets overgrown and needs a dramatic cutback. That’s part of the fun of bonsai!

At any rate, congratulations on a great tree with a great future. It’s something you’ll treasure for a lifetime!

Brian Van Fleet said:

No, because if pressed, I actually see this tree as moving left, and even shortened the bottom right pad a few years ago. The first live vein moves left, the center section twists in an attempt to fight the left movement, and finally, the upper trunk moves left. The left side of the foliage cascades down to the left, countering and framing the center section of trunk that is going right. What features do you and Adair see to suggest it is going more right?

The movement left or right is controversial, and some teachers place more emphasis on it than others, sometimes to the detriment of the design. Philosophically, let’s say we agree the movement is to the right and the rules dictate the “key branch” should be to the right. That would mean the left branch must be shortened, the right branch must be lengthened, or some combination of the two. Virts are tricky because we are way into nuances that photoshop can’t do, but do any of these improve the Bonsai?
Original:
View attachment 204400View attachment 204409
Shorten left branch; a little, more, then push apex to the right:
View attachment 204403View attachment 204401View attachment 204402
Or lengthen the right branch until it is lower than the left, then shorten the left:
View attachment 204404View attachment 204405
And it may not need to be said, but know I respect you and your work, and this is a friendly philosophical discussion.

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Ah, your eye is attracted to the movement of the lifeline at the base. For me, it’s the white deadwood that attracts my eye. And it definately moves to the right until it turns at the first branch.

As Scott was saying about the differences between Eastern and Western aesthetics, what people “see” when they look at something can be different.

As an example, you mentioned the little gap at the nebari. I didn’t see it, until you mentioned it. It still doesn’t bother me.

I think when we work so closely with our trees we tend to view them differently than the outside observer who approaches them for the first time.

Makes for interesting discussions, at any rate!

markyscott said:

Do you have a photo of the tree before you shortened the branch on the right?

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Not exactly, because one of the first decisions I made was that it moved left?. I’ll leave this for now and check later. This is the tree after Marco styled it in 2010 or so, which seems very conflicted, since he tilted everything to the right, then put most of the foliage to the left.

A couple years after I bought it, and started to bulk it up, just before Bjorn and I worked it in 2015:

The initial result in 2015:

Second styling in 2016:

It's hard for me to offer a critique because I've never been a fan of bonsai with such a manicured appearance. That's just my styling preference. So, my comment is not meant to be disrespectful in any way.

I will however offer my unskilled opinion for what it's worth. It's exactly the kind of tree one would expect to see in a show.

As mentioned earlier, the two live veins in the front are a bit distracting. There's almost a barbershop pole effect going on. Is it possible to remove the lower part of the vein to the right just below the point where the fusing is beginning? Just a thought. The other thing that would cause me to stop and look at the tree more closely is if I could see more of the inner branches. I know they're beautiful, but I'd have to lift her skirt to see them.

Well, that's my unskilled assessment. You can't argue that it's nothing but a beautiful tree, but for me it just needs something that will cause me to stop and admire it more.

I feel this is extremely important because we have two followers of one following saying the same thing, and the owner saying something different and I think some context is valuable here. I will post this and go back into the bunker.

I mentioned Kathy Shaner, whom I respect probably the most of all the professionals I have ever worked with. This tree was entered into the Kazari in Hanford California in 2010 by Boon Manikitivipart. It too is a boomerang shaped trunk with the apex centered over the root base like BVF's.

This was her opinion on boomerang shaped trunks and movement:

Boon's pine.

At first look this is a no brainer. The trunk points left and the primary branch is on the left this tree points left. After the Kazari was done Kathy agreed to walk around with each contestant and critique each display. Lat me also say that I won second place this year which also added to the drama because there were some magnificent trees on display and my tree was not near close to the caliber of some of the trees. This was Peter Tea's display and a magnificent juniper also. Looks alot like BVF's but notice the trunk, Boomerang shaped, and the trunk exits the soil dramatically to the right, yet he displayed it to the left. So what does Peter know that Boon doesn't?


So Kathy went on to explain, much to the chagren of Jim Gremel who fought the good fight on behalf of Boon to no avail.

Kathy says: when a trunk exits the soil and moves off in a direction, and the apex follows and ends away from the root ball, it is considered a slanting tree. If the trunk turns back, in a boomerang shape and the apex lands over the root mass, it is a Moyogi tree, If the tree's foliage and branch structure is primarily built within the confines of the top of the boomerang, it can be considered the living movement of the tree.

Now, Jim Gremel argued, that if a small man, (you had to be there, I've never seen slow easy going Jim get so animated, I was cracking up) came in and sawed that pine down, which way would it fall? Easy, it would fall to the left, the way he has the tree pointed. But Kathy explained to Jim that the living portion of the tree is well above the central bend in the trunk and points right, and so does the apex.

It ended with I'm sorry Jim, I'm the judge and you don't get to win this one today. Jim hung his head and walked away.



So there you have it. That is why I said what I did. That is what a Professional from Japan in a very prestigious jury judged bonsai competition had to say. I made 1000.00 bucks that day with a so so tree and a stand I built. I was happy as a clam to be within all that company and place, because I did my homework on what TOKO KAZARI is, not SEKI KAZARI which is what Boon did.

You guys have a great day, and the idea here is not etched in stone, this is just one professionals idea of how to determine movement.

Bananaman said:

Kathy says: when a trunk exits the soil and moves off in a direction, and the apex follows and ends away from the root ball, it is considered a slanting tree. If the trunk turns back, in a boomerang shape and the apex lands over the root mass, it is a Moyogi tree, If the tree's foliage and branch structure is primarily built within the confines of the top of the boomerang, it can be considered the living movement of the tree.

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The alternate points of view on this really fascinate me. We make styling choices based on these observation of movement and its really interesting how differently people see something so fundamental. Taking how you expressed Kathy’s view at face value:

1) The trunk on Brian’s tree exits the soil and moves to the right and the apex follows and is to the right of the rootball. Do you consider his tree to be a moyogi? Based on this statement, why do you think that Kathy would suggest that the tree moved to the left?
2) I think I understand your point about the foliage built within the confines of the top of the boomerang, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard the term “living movement” before. Can you explain more?

Scott