That is a significant loss. Sure you already know the management practices going forward, it's a long road. Don't get too sterile - they say Phytopthora is killed some by bark decomposing and you need your biome for decomposition. It's all so complicated.
A nightmare.
- Thread starter Fidur
- Start date
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Joe Dupre'
Omono
My apologies on posting an unrelated video. I completely missed the "look here" link in the original post. Hopefully you can get control of the problem. Losing that many trees is truly heartbreaking.
stubmle
Mame
Fidur, I am sorry to hear of you misfortune. Your work has been an inspiration and I hope you do not lose hope. My heart weeps for you.
The only advice I can give is to contact your agricultural bureau and see what they say, maybe they can help you manage or contain this. Best wishes and good luck!
The only advice I can give is to contact your agricultural bureau and see what they say, maybe they can help you manage or contain this. Best wishes and good luck!
Fidur
Chumono
Thanks!!!!. You give me strengh!.....yes , the second best thing to practice bonsai, is that there are beautiful people that support you, and "know" exactly what you feel when your trees are sick.
I think I will use this thread to find out, wich of my species are phytophtora desease free.
Today, I could sadly find out, that absolutely all my conifers are affected . (chamaecyparis, pines, junipers, cryptomerias, dawn redwoods, taxus, arborvitae,....). Some of them are yet only very slightly damaged, but I've learned it's a matter of time that they all will die. So I guess, there is no conifer in my future....
....those were my first target when I begun.
I still have doubts about my azaleas, chinese elms, acer, cuphea, malus ....
Good news is that some species seem resistant for now (wich means they have been close enough to deseased plants, long enough under the same circunstances to have been infected, but hadn´t). Edit; As I applied a fosetil systemic fungicide in the early stages to all my trees, maybe they were effectivly protected, but not resistant
bouganvilles (None of my 5 is affected)
leptospermum scoparium (4 unaffected)
coprosma kirkii (3 unaffected)
zanthoxilum ( 2 unaffected)
schinus therbenthifolius
pyracantha (3 unaffected)
adenium
portulacarias
calliandra brevipes
callistemon
argyranthemum
myrtle communis
ficus (microcarpa, benjamina and tiger bark)
sageretia thezans
tamarindus indica
albizia julibrissin
fulkien tea
tecoma capensis
I will update this list (to erase some now suitable species)
If I add new species to my collection (hard right now and in short term) they will probably be tropicals, as they seem not so prone to phytophtora.
Again, thanks to all the people that commented in this thread.
I think I will use this thread to find out, wich of my species are phytophtora desease free.
Today, I could sadly find out, that absolutely all my conifers are affected . (chamaecyparis, pines, junipers, cryptomerias, dawn redwoods, taxus, arborvitae,....). Some of them are yet only very slightly damaged, but I've learned it's a matter of time that they all will die. So I guess, there is no conifer in my future....
....those were my first target when I begun.I still have doubts about my azaleas, chinese elms, acer, cuphea, malus ....
Good news is that some species seem resistant for now (wich means they have been close enough to deseased plants, long enough under the same circunstances to have been infected, but hadn´t). Edit; As I applied a fosetil systemic fungicide in the early stages to all my trees, maybe they were effectivly protected, but not resistant
bouganvilles (None of my 5 is affected)
leptospermum scoparium (4 unaffected)
coprosma kirkii (3 unaffected)
zanthoxilum ( 2 unaffected)
schinus therbenthifolius
pyracantha (3 unaffected)
adenium
portulacarias
calliandra brevipes
callistemon
argyranthemum
myrtle communis
ficus (microcarpa, benjamina and tiger bark)
sageretia thezans
tamarindus indica
albizia julibrissin
fulkien tea
tecoma capensis
I will update this list (to erase some now suitable species)
If I add new species to my collection (hard right now and in short term) they will probably be tropicals, as they seem not so prone to phytophtora.
Again, thanks to all the people that commented in this thread.
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Betula1
Mame
So sorry to hear about your problems.
Has the specific Phytophthora cinnamoni disease been positively diagnosed in your trees by USDA Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service lab testing ? They should provide LFD test kits and or take samples for lab diagnosis.
Here are a few ways of reducing transmission of Phytophthora used here in UK to combat Phytophthora ramorum ,a similar disease. The same principles should apply.
Bag and burn / dump all affected plant materials
Disinfect all tools and hands when handling plants and pots using alcohol based spray.
Cover the ground or benches with a geotextile membrane or similar to prevent spores from being mobilised by rain-splash/ irrigation water splashing onto low foliage from contaminated surfaces.
Space plants widely on benches to improve airflow and keep plants off the ground if possible
Crown lift canopies ie prune off low hanging foliage.
Irrigate only with clean uncontaminated water source
Keep any water storage tanks covered to prevent contamination from airborne spores.
Where ground grown garden plants have been affected, after destroying/ removal of infected plants, mulch over affected areas with deep woodchip and or geotextile membrane or lawn turf to bury any sources of ground spores.
Keep all new plants in a quarantine area well away from your collection for several months until you are sure they are disease -free.
Best of luck for the future.
Has the specific Phytophthora cinnamoni disease been positively diagnosed in your trees by USDA Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service lab testing ? They should provide LFD test kits and or take samples for lab diagnosis.
Here are a few ways of reducing transmission of Phytophthora used here in UK to combat Phytophthora ramorum ,a similar disease. The same principles should apply.
Bag and burn / dump all affected plant materials
Disinfect all tools and hands when handling plants and pots using alcohol based spray.
Cover the ground or benches with a geotextile membrane or similar to prevent spores from being mobilised by rain-splash/ irrigation water splashing onto low foliage from contaminated surfaces.
Space plants widely on benches to improve airflow and keep plants off the ground if possible
Crown lift canopies ie prune off low hanging foliage.
Irrigate only with clean uncontaminated water source
Keep any water storage tanks covered to prevent contamination from airborne spores.
Where ground grown garden plants have been affected, after destroying/ removal of infected plants, mulch over affected areas with deep woodchip and or geotextile membrane or lawn turf to bury any sources of ground spores.
Keep all new plants in a quarantine area well away from your collection for several months until you are sure they are disease -free.
Best of luck for the future.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
I am going to counter here. I doubt this is Phytophthora.
This disease is not typically airborn as far as I know. Travelling from pot to pot can only happen by using substrate from one pot to another.
Next to this, it requires pretty wet conditions in the pot to occur. For your conifers I would doubt this to be the case.
The wide-spread infection and growing conditions you most likely have on the spanish isles make me greatly doubt your infection identification.
Have you checked for e.g., spider mites? The clumpy occurance on the foliage makes something (Insects, mites, fungal) living in/on the foliage more likely.
This disease is not typically airborn as far as I know. Travelling from pot to pot can only happen by using substrate from one pot to another.
Next to this, it requires pretty wet conditions in the pot to occur. For your conifers I would doubt this to be the case.
The wide-spread infection and growing conditions you most likely have on the spanish isles make me greatly doubt your infection identification.
Have you checked for e.g., spider mites? The clumpy occurance on the foliage makes something (Insects, mites, fungal) living in/on the foliage more likely.
Betula1
Mame
Sorry Fidur I thought you were in USA- Your EU Plant Health inspection service or your Forestry protection service should be your point of contact.
When buying new plants suggest you always ask for their Plant Passport.
When buying new plants suggest you always ask for their Plant Passport.
Betula1
Mame
Phytophthora ramorum IS commonly airborne , particularly when affecting Japanese Larch Forests here in western UK, the spores can spread for miles on the wind.
It wiped out whole forests in areas of western UK, also killing Rhododendron, Vaccinium, Castanea, Pieris, Magnolia Kalmia etc etc
Fidur
Chumono
Yes, I also have doubts about my identification. I think the main vector was the water splashing when it rained.
Insects, mites, fungal are sure a possibility, though I see none and periodically use a systemic insecticide. Anyway I would love you are right.
I can´t stop thinking it could be my paranoia, but as I've seen symptoms in 3 big plums in my yard (>50 years old), (and I know when and how it could be spread) it has become an important issue for my environment, and I'm on the first steps to get the affected soil tested in lab by the agricultural agency.
I will update to report back.
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leatherback
The Treedeemer
Unless it include a miticide it will not work against spider mites.
Fidur
Chumono
Yes, I know.
But mites as a plague are unknown in gardens here. And I've used a blank sheet to try and detect something in the foliage of the affected. Only got a bit of salt dust coming from the salted water I used last summer....
JeffS73
Chumono
Very sorry to hear of your woes Fidur, I have enjoyed reading your posts and seeing your trees.
Bacillus Subtilis is supposed to offer some protection against Phytophthera, this is what's in the danu product. The idea is that it outcompetes fungi / bacteria I think.
In Russia and Ukraine they use it a lot as a soil drench and spray. You can find it on eBay by searching for fitosporin. Perhaps worth a try, not expensive.
Bacillus Subtilis is supposed to offer some protection against Phytophthera, this is what's in the danu product. The idea is that it outcompetes fungi / bacteria I think.
In Russia and Ukraine they use it a lot as a soil drench and spray. You can find it on eBay by searching for fitosporin. Perhaps worth a try, not expensive.
Hartinez
Masterpiece
To that end Fidur. Here is something else that could be happening. This is based on what my issues were when I was having them. Ultimately, I didn't know what fungus was affecting my trees, because I was having issues on everything from, pines to elms, junipers, spirea, everything. And what I think was happening, is I had a number of pathogens on my trees because my trees were weak generally. Im pretty sure it was due to my water quality at the time of the problems that weakened my trees and opened them up to a host of problems. It sounds like you have sourced a new water system and you may find that next season, things are much much better. Again, I don't know if that's what's happening in your yard, it's just a thought.
Here is the thread I started when I had problems. Maybe it'll be of some help and if anything for you to see that you're not the only one! and Im still here doing it and my trees are better than ever.'
Here is the thread I started when I had problems. Maybe it'll be of some help and if anything for you to see that you're not the only one! and Im still here doing it and my trees are better than ever.'
Glaucus
Omono
This sucks big time, lot's of good trees with a lot of work and passion put into them.
There are rapid tests for phytophthora. Like the covid/pregnancy type lateral flow test. I saw a few for sale on www.minisatsuki.com. I have no idea how to ID what it is. Or what treatment to use. But considering the value of them, it may be worth seeking the help of a professional in plant pest management.
They could even do lab tests.
minisatsuki.com
Here are some Dutch lists for pest management:
www.iperen.com
Bayer Serenade is the B. subtilis beneficial bacteria treatment for plants in the EU. It is the amyloliquefaciens strain QST 713 for against phytophthora.
But, you can't buy it as a consumer.
Yes, weak plants will get pathogens more easily. And then the pathogen can be the symptom, rather than the cause. But usually those are the insect pathogens, I would say.
There are rapid tests for phytophthora. Like the covid/pregnancy type lateral flow test. I saw a few for sale on www.minisatsuki.com. I have no idea how to ID what it is. Or what treatment to use. But considering the value of them, it may be worth seeking the help of a professional in plant pest management.
They could even do lab tests.
Pocket Diagnostic Phytophtora - miniSatsuki
Kit individuel pour diagnostiquer pour le Phytophtora trés simple d’utilisation. Résultat entre 3 et 10 minutes. Ce kit contient :
minisatsuki.com
Here are some Dutch lists for pest management:
Advieslijst gewasbescherming potplanten | Van Iperen
Hier vindt u het overzicht van het toegestane middelengebruik voor potplanten.
www.iperen.com
Bayer Serenade is the B. subtilis beneficial bacteria treatment for plants in the EU. It is the amyloliquefaciens strain QST 713 for against phytophthora.
But, you can't buy it as a consumer.
Yes, weak plants will get pathogens more easily. And then the pathogen can be the symptom, rather than the cause. But usually those are the insect pathogens, I would say.
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leatherback
The Treedeemer
I cannot stop thinking about yr trees. Considering yr climate I am seriously doubting wide spread fungals.
The sap leaking from the cherry tree can also be from borers or heat stroke. Considering you are at a potentially hot and dry location, I would guess yr cherry has a "heat/drought stroke" from last year.
How does de substrate look? If pure akadama, this can turn into mud under specific circumstances. Also, highly variable pot conditions can affect roots.
It would be good to get some hot climate people to chine in..
The sap leaking from the cherry tree can also be from borers or heat stroke. Considering you are at a potentially hot and dry location, I would guess yr cherry has a "heat/drought stroke" from last year.
How does de substrate look? If pure akadama, this can turn into mud under specific circumstances. Also, highly variable pot conditions can affect roots.
It would be good to get some hot climate people to chine in..
RoadManDenDron
Chumono
OK, purely anecdotal I apologise! But...
One method I doubt you have tried due to it being relatively unknown is calcium
I use amino acids to increase calcium absorption at the root zone and supplement calcium and magnesium
The calcium makes it difficult if not impossible for fungus to take hold as what was previously water in the plant becomes calcium pectate and the germination tubes of fungus dries out before it can take hold.
I have only used this as a preventative myself, however a friend on the allotment was having blight issues in his tomatoes and we tried it as a what is there to lose situation and it actually stopped the blight from spreading.
One method I doubt you have tried due to it being relatively unknown is calcium
I use amino acids to increase calcium absorption at the root zone and supplement calcium and magnesium
The calcium makes it difficult if not impossible for fungus to take hold as what was previously water in the plant becomes calcium pectate and the germination tubes of fungus dries out before it can take hold.
I have only used this as a preventative myself, however a friend on the allotment was having blight issues in his tomatoes and we tried it as a what is there to lose situation and it actually stopped the blight from spreading.
Fidur
Chumono
I also doubt it. And after almost 4 months applying weekly systemic fungicides (using 3 different active principles) the only result is that they keep dying.
Also I tried the Pocket Diagnostic Phytophtora that @Glaucus suggested. And it turned negative (still there are chances that I didn´t use the appropiate vegetal tissue or even that there was a type II error associated to every test)
I haven't seen any type of bug in the trees, the roots or the soils, and I've inspected thoroughly.
Anyway, the dead and semidead section of my garden is still growing: (unfortunatly my leptospermums are not inmune, but it seems none of my junipers is affected)
That sap leaking in my garden plums:
is called gomosis, and is usually caused by phytophtora or fungus (stress is another possible reason).
I placed all my trees on the ground under this plum in the 2023 summer, and used and automated watering system for 20 days while I was in Japan and Korea. I think this fact is the root of all my problems....
I feel sort of defeated right now, but I think there are still some possible treatments, I could try ( @RoadManDenDron suggested aminoacids)
And next week I will bring samples to the local agriculture lab to have some diagnosis.....
Betula1
Mame
So sorry to hear of your continuing woes. The fact that you have had dieback in a wide variety of unrelated species means there is likely to be more than one factor causing the problems, unless you have a problem with contaminated water supply, or even a malfunction with your irrigation setup. Have you had your water supply tested?
The 'Gomosis' in your garden Cherry trees is unlikely to be related to the dieback of your conifers or any of the other species you grow except Prunus, as the others are totally unrelated genera. The majority of plant pathogens only affect specific hosts and dont infect everything indiscriminately.
On Prunus, symptoms include oozing or gummy areas of bark, and brown spots or holes on leaves can be caused by Bacterial canker of Prunus which is mainly caused by strains of the bacterium Pseudomonas syringae or Xanthomonus.
If sending samples for analysis try including root, soils and leaf/twig samples from each symptomatic plant separately , ideally in ziplock bags, double bagged securely with date of sampling and species name on each bag, and keep the samples cool and out of direct sun until they are delivered.
Please let us know the outcome of the lab tests. Best wishes
The 'Gomosis' in your garden Cherry trees is unlikely to be related to the dieback of your conifers or any of the other species you grow except Prunus, as the others are totally unrelated genera. The majority of plant pathogens only affect specific hosts and dont infect everything indiscriminately.
On Prunus, symptoms include oozing or gummy areas of bark, and brown spots or holes on leaves can be caused by Bacterial canker of Prunus which is mainly caused by strains of the bacterium Pseudomonas syringae or Xanthomonus.
If sending samples for analysis try including root, soils and leaf/twig samples from each symptomatic plant separately , ideally in ziplock bags, double bagged securely with date of sampling and species name on each bag, and keep the samples cool and out of direct sun until they are delivered.
Please let us know the outcome of the lab tests. Best wishes
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Hm.. In Germany it is often seen in heatstressed or latefrost exposed trees.
Often trees are infected with diseases because they have health issues, if you know what I mean. Fungals may also mean the trees were weak. So even if it is fungal, I look for deeper ground of deteriorating health..
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