A question on bonsai pots

[LuZiKui]

I came across this pot for sale (on a pretty popular bonsai site) and to my uneducated eye it looks far less refined/complex than almost all of the pots I see from all the potters on bnut. Which made me scratch my head about the price.

I don’t want to make this a debate about the value of art. I understand that art is very subjective and is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it, BUT is there something I’m missing about a pot like this? Is it really hard to make a pot that looks like this or is there something special about the glaze/finish?

 

[Potawatomi13]

Nope. Looks exactly like made by kindergartner. Maybe more like $5.95 at most. Often the honest "uneducated eye" sees the emperor really has no clothes.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

The size of the pot alone means it was too large for the typical hobby or home size kiln. That alone moves it to the $200 or more price range. However I agree with you, this pot does not look "rustic", this pot looks poorly made. Crap is crap, even if it is a big pot.

For the price I would have expected a higher level of craftsmanship. Many artist do not realize the hazard in making "rustic" pottery, the danger is that it can look like poor workmanship, amateurish, or worse. My children have grown up and have careers, I don't want "kiddie art" around the house.

My preference has always been for pottery with refined finishes, burnished and unglazed or a nice smooth glazed finish. I do have a couple "rustic" pieces, but they have better workmanship than apparent in the photo.

I just had a horrible thought, this pot may have been made by a friend of mine. If so, sorry buddy, you should have ground it up for grog. I know, harsh. But if its who I think it is, you have done better, recently. Most of your pots are much better than this.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

This pot is being sold by a company that has at least three photographers, one videographer, a hand full of online marketeers and another hand full of helping hands.
They're all artists in their own field and they need to be paid.

I have an opinion about that. Which I'll spare everyone.
However I do have to note that I'm scared of what'll happen to the price of ceramics and trees when one of the most popular bonsai companies sets a price range like this. It might artificially drive up prices by setting a standard, and as a consequence push novice enthusiasts away from the hobby. Or.. cause money hungry people to get involved and overharvest the wild (and owned land) like what's happening to olive trees in Italy and Spain - or happened in Japan in the past.
Imagine every yamadori being worth 4-8K USD. Imagine how many crackheads would die in the deserts digging for junipers after they learned about that.

 

[penumbra]

That pot sucks! Not only does it lack grace or any redeeming features, but it shows a complete lack of pride. If I ever come across with a pot this poor that I have not used for target practice, shoot me. While I try not to be overtly rude, this really pushes my button.

 

[Colorado]

This pot was made by Thor Holvila as a part of the Triskele Collective - Mirai collaboration. That collaboration was a artist-in-residence project.

Mirai recently published an episode documenting the collaboration and everything that went into making these pots. I think you need to watch the episode in order to understand the context of the project.

The entire purpose of the project was for Thor, Andy Pearson, and Tom Benda to break free from their traditional practices. The idea was to create a select body of work AT MIRAI and influenced by the environment at Mirai, the bristlecones, and the landscape at Yosemite.

Also the pieces were wood fired in an anagrama kiln for like 3 weeks, apparently.

Personally wouldn’t spend $600 on the pot, but I do understand the price point given the special circumstances, collector’s item, etc etc.

 

[rockm]

The pot you've pictured is from Mirai's "Trikele Collective" sale. The collective is made up of some pretty experienced bonsai potters--Tom Benda, Andrew Pearson (stonemonkey), and Thor Holvila. This vid is worth watching to see what they're about with their series made for Mirai.

I'm not really all that fond of this pot though--rustic pots are not easy to pull off. I have been fond of wood fired pots for a long time and have many in my collection, particularly from Ron Lang. Ron used to have a gigantic wood fired kiln to produce soda fired pots.

This series being sold through Mirai sounds like it's a first-time effort by these potters to make rustic pieces as a reflection of their experience with the Western U.S...There are more listed that are better, but with accordingly higher pricing.

Lack of grace and refinement is part of the aim with pots like this. The aim is more towards the wild informal unrefined. The Japanese have making rustic pots for a while. The one pictured below is one I picked up a while ago for less than half the price of the one here. It's a third the size, but it gets the rustic thing a little better, I think.

Price is a relative thing, however (this one is reduced in price because it has firing cracks...). Prices on Mirai for all pots are a premium, sometimes more than double than what a pot each individual potter charges without a Mirai listing. Pots on that site go pretty quickly. It is what it is.

 

[Maiden69]

Yeah... I don't see myself spending that much money for a pot like this when there are quite a few guys and gals out there doing way better work for the same or less money.

This pot is being sold by a company that has at least three photographers, one videographer, a hand full of online marketeers and another hand full of helping hands.
They're all artists in their own field and they need to be paid.

This is nonsense... yes, I agree that the staff is highly competitive and they all need to get paid, but I seen pots by other artists on sale on their website, or on another business website go for the same price they do at Mirai. Mirai has a business relationship with them, as many other business. A lot of artists set the price range for their pots, Mirai buys a crap load of them so they get a heavy discount, which in turn turns into their profit. Same when I was a ceramic coating installer, the company I bought the chemicals from set the MRP for the products, you can upcharge a little bit depending on the circumstances, but the company sells at MRP so if they are close to you, you ain't getting the sale.

I seen pots for Tom Benda, Sarah Rayner, Ron Lang on other sites for the same price as in Mirai.

 

[Colorado]

That pot sucks! Not only does it lack grace or any redeeming features, but it shows a complete lack of pride. If I ever come across with a pot this poor that I have not used for target practice, shoot me. While I try not to be overtly rude, this really pushes my button.

Why don’t you tell us how you really feel about the pot? Haha!

But in all seriousness, I think it helps to see the video for context. I understand the pot much more after seeing the video.

 

[Maiden69]

The pot you've pictured is from Mirai's "Trikele Collective" sale. The collective is made up of some pretty experienced bonsai potters--Tom Benda, Andrew Pearson (stonemonkey), and Thor Holvila. This vid is worth watching to see what they're about with their series made for Mirai.

Funny the video is out on YouTube but they haven't uploaded it to Mirai Live...

 

[rockm]

FWIW, comparing art to commodities is futile. Apples and oranges. Art is highly subjective and can command ridiculous prices sometimes, depending on the background, etc. Some call that hype, but again, it is what it is. The pots produced in this collaborative are more than just the end product. It comes with intangibles--You have three notable potters producing pots in a specialized environment during a "one off" program. It's a marketing thing, but can drive up the value if you're a collector.

All that is not really my cup of tea, but it is for some collectors.

Funny the video is out on YouTube but they haven't uploaded it to Mirai Live...

It showed up on my Facebook feed yesterday.

 

[rockm]

This pot is being sold by a company that has at least three photographers, one videographer, a hand full of online marketeers and another hand full of helping hands.
They're all artists in their own field and they need to be paid.

I have an opinion about that. Which I'll spare everyone.
However I do have to note that I'm scared of what'll happen to the price of ceramics and trees when one of the most popular bonsai companies sets a price range like this. It might artificially drive up prices by setting a standard, and as a consequence push novice enthusiasts away from the hobby. Or.. cause money hungry people to get involved and overharvest the wild (and owned land) like what's happening to olive trees in Italy and Spain - or happened in Japan in the past.
Imagine every yamadori being worth 4-8K USD. Imagine how many crackheads would die in the deserts digging for junipers after they learned about that.

Well, given that Colorado or Montana themselves are mostly the size of Germany and the entire Western U.S. is about the same size as Europe with less than half the population, the danger of bonsai collectors themselves overharvesting is mostly a non-factor. Yes, there are some bonsai collectors who are taking trees that should probably remain where they are, but the supply is vast and deep. There is more danger from wild fires, land development, etc.

The effect of the increasing supply and availability of awesome wild collected trees has actually driven prices for them DOWN in the last couple of decades...

 

[Pitoon]

Personally, this pot does nothing for me regardless of who made it....known potter or not, but to each their own. I can understand the work involved to make it, especially if it's gas or wood fired. My mame/shohin pots take a awhile so I can imagine larger pots. While pots from different potters can demand certain prices based on their qualities. In this case this seems to be a bit ridiculous.

There is nothing appealing aesthetically about this pot, at least in my eyes. I wouldn't take it even if it was given to me.

 

[sorce]

"Monkey Poo Brown", that's what my guy calls that finish.
It lacks anything exciting that an extensive wood fire, a good... extensive wood fire, has the capability to produce.
So it's lacking what COULD have made it worth a high price for the wood fire process.
All that's left then, is marketing.

Seems fired upsidedown, which gives it a look that it was merely brushed with iron and ash and fired in an electric kiln, so without the text, there is nothing really special. Except that marketing.

Truth, a pot like this is the only type that would actually make sense to fire for days, so the fact it came out lacking about 90% of the interest possible means, the best pot from that kiln should cost about $10k, but it seems that pot doesn't exist either.

Better to buy the "ting" than the marke.

Sorce

 

[chicago1980]

Comment section on Bnuts is brutal.

Cheers to artist breathing and eating on their art.

 

[rockm]

FWIW, might give some perspective to look at Thor's website. There are other rustic pots pictured there...

Handmade stoneware bonsai pots from Sweden | Thor Holvila Bonsai Pot

WEBSTORE Thor Holvila bonsai pots for sale updated once every month with new releases.

www.holvilabonsaipot.com

 

[chicago1980]

FWIW, might give some perspective to look at Thor's website. There are other rustic pots pictured there...

Handmade stoneware bonsai pots from Sweden | Thor Holvila Bonsai Pot

WEBSTORE Thor Holvila bonsai pots for sale updated once every month with new releases.

www.holvilabonsaipot.com

Thor is a beast with clay.

 

[rockm]

The pricing for the piece in this post looks to be in line (with only a smallish add on) with what Thor is selling on his site... There are similar rustic 12" pots there that have sold for 490 ($515) and 580 ($610) Euros...The piece above is 13". Just sayin...

They don't have kiln errors, however.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Comment section on Bnuts is brutal.

Cheers to artist breathing and eating on their art.

Well... there is more than one way to make a rustic pot. The key is to make the pot rustic without losing the craftsmanship. I personally think this pot doesn't look rustic - it looks sloppy. Whether or not it is made by a pro or whether or not someone thinks it is worth $500 doesn't change my opinion. If John Naka had made the pot I might enjoy having it in my collection... but I would still think it looked sloppy and I would never display a tree in it.

One day I may make some pots because I think I would enjoy it. I will happily post my pots here for people to criticize... and I will listen to what people have to say. Otherwise I could just stick them up on an online site somewhere under a nom de guerre and if they sell, they sell, and I wouldn't care what people thought about them. So if you see someone making pots under the name "Bonsai Phantom" you'll know...

 

[rockm]

FWIW, I'm not defending anyone here. The pot is what it is. I'm just adding to the perspective on WHY someone might put out the cash for the container. The pot seems to be very similar (only difference is no glaze) to what the potter is producing as a whole--scroll through his website. Some folks have been fainting over Thor's pots for some time and people are spending similarly on his work...only difference here is that his work was posted untitled and coming from Mirai...just sayin...


Also worth noting this from his bio:

"In 2017 Thor was invited to work side by side with japanese potter Hidemi "Shuho" Kataoka In Tokoname and there he received the honorary name Kumatani wich marks Thor second generation pots."