A serious discussion about building intrest in bonsai for the 15-35 crowd

Wanted to add something to my post above... but time ran out!

I know a lot of people actually doing Bonsai in the age group you have addressed...

Half of the people probably on this site posting day in and day out, are in this group...

Just no one knows they exist.

Why?

If you were to ask me... I would honestly have to say that it sadly seems to be the case that what their doing... does not seem important.

That there is a conditioning going on, and a view that no one else's work seems to be of relevance unless you are the same 5 masters.
That no one else could possibly have anything to share, or be able to teach... unless you are these same 5 people.

Which, Ok...
But, what happens when these people are no longer around? Who will be the next generation? Will the Next Generation have to go to Japan to study, to be of any importance?
Just asking...
 
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It is interesting to see this survey... now is it complete? I am sure not... more than likely a lot of older members did not participate.

But, what then does this say about younger members? They want to be a part of the process... even if it is a silly survey on just one site.

Younger members are out there.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/the-age-group-thread.27148/
 
With Bonsai also there is a huge intimidation factor as well. It is a very critical art, one where only the best is accepted. Young new people are made to feel stupid very quickly. Their visions torn apart by being told "it's a waste of time, get another tree." Now this ties in to the fact that the world IMO lately has been molded into weak, complacent folks.....they cannot take criticism and more importantly after being criticized instead of developing a FIRE to succeed and be better, they just give up.......

This is not a forgiving hobby

I agree with what you said here:
Wanted to add something to my post above... but time ran out!
If you were to ask me... I would honestly have to say that it sadly seems to be the case that what their doing... does not seem important.

That there is a conditioning going on, and a view that no one else's work seems to be of relevance unless you are the same 5 masters.
That no one else could possibly have anything to share, or be able to teach... unless you are these same 5 people.

Which, Ok...
But, what happens when these people are no longer around? Who will be the next generation? Will the Next Generation have to go to Japan to study, to be of any importance?
Just asking...


I think this is the biggest "wall" that keeps new people out. That feeling of knowing (or anticipating) that someone with experience is going to look at their work and tell them it's bad. Or immediately tell them what they are doing wrong.

Maybe as experienced artists when they see an indiviual's work for the first time instead of point out what they have done wrong or could do better, maybe the approach can change to one where the first few times they just tell them what they are doing right and how to further that.....create more desire to learn and more respect for the "pro" when they tell them things that are wrong.....
 
One thing that I would add to this conversation is to piggy-back with other related hobbies / activities.

For example, there are county fairs where people who are interested in nature and crops and gardening attend in the thousands... and I have never seen a bonsai pavilion at one.

There are garden shows, orchid shows, etc, where you will often get "interested" people. In one case out here in California at a big orchid show there was one small bonsai vendor selling inexpensive trees - and I think he was doing 10x as much business as the orchid vendors!
 
I agree a lot @sawgrass

Everywhere you turn its pretty much always the same faces. I have worked with a few of those names here and there over the years and to be honest one of the things that went through my mind when meeting them, watching their demo's, etc. was that if I were younger pretty much the whole experience with them would be enough to make me shy away from bonsai.

I know it is going to spark some unnecessary comments, but one of the bigger names in the USA that is really making a lot of noise about bonsai on the west coast is Ryan Neil. Being older myself I have a tolerance and understanding of people @ his age. I think his drive for promoting bonsai is great and have nothing bad to say about what he is doing, but I'm not sure if it was his time in Japan, or just his natural demeanor, the guy has a bit of an ego. I have spoken with several of the younger crowd who have interacted with him that were quite put off by it. I've also witnessed it in his videos and interviews. The younger group doesn't really know how to take things like that with a grain of salt. They really are a sensitive group.

I also have witnessed what I call "Japan apprentice syndrome" in a lot of the names you hear a lot in the current community. Having apprenticed in Japan under a few different artists in my youth, I can tell you first hand that maybe 10% of what you learn while there is about wiring and styling and working on trees. I'm not the only one who admits that. Bjorn Bjorholm has said it many times. Apprenticing in Japan is not what makes a person a bonsai "master" or "professional", I have met MANY people who completed an apprenticeship in Japan and still can barley produce a tree worthy of exhibition. Yet a major part of people in the bonsai scene thing studying in Japan or under a Japanese Master is what defines a bonsai professional. The youth today are not going to be into that cultural stereotype and are going to be more put off by it than drawn in because of it.

Having 2 doctorates, and a masters and having written several curriculum in my days, I can tell anyone with certainty what defines a "master" in today's educational definition. 10,000 hours of study including 1,000 hours of applied focus. That's it.

Not that I'm rich by any means, but I did well enough for myself over my life that I have been afforded a few luxuries in my retirement. One of those luxuries is that I have been fortunate enough to travel the world over and spend a lot of time with bonsai enthusiasts, hobbyists, professionals and masters. In those travels I met a true master among masters, more knowledge, understanding, comprehension and applied practice than anyone I have ever come across in a list of hundreds if not thousands by now names I have met including the names we all know in Japan. The man lives in India, had 0 formal training from any "masters" has never competed in anything major and really had no interest in flying his "look at me" flag. I spent an entire week with him, Learned in that time that everything he has learned was from books, and practice, and for the past few years the internet. He told me once that "you don't have to study under Raja Ravi Varma to learn how to pick up a paintbrush and create beautiful works of art, you only have to pick up the paintbrush and never stop learning" It made perfect sense to me, although I did have to google Raja to learn he was a famous 19th century Indian artist.

Anyways, now that this has turned into a short novel. The point I am getting at, and have further confirmed by many of the replies to this thread is that a lot of you are right. The current bonsai culture is not something many younger people, or even middle aged people these days are really going to take to. Although a know a lot of very talented people who have apprenticed in Japan, worshiping them and abiding to the stigma that apprenticing in Japan makes them any more of a master than someone who has spent 10-20 years of their lives working on Bonsai and constantly progressing their talents is really whats wrong with the current culture.

It has become clear as day after reading a lot of these replies that in order to bring in more people especially the younger crowd that one of two things will have to happen. Either the apprentice worshiping culture has to stop or change, Or a new more accepting, more open minded, community has to be built. One that doesn't always so eagerly try to define what a professional or master is. One that thinks outside of the past 100 years of bonsai and seeks to reinvent itself. A culture that is more a fluid organism than a brick in the shaolin temple.


Oooops, Got to run. The wife just gave me the "get off the computer" look.
 
What an interesting and thought provoking thread. Two Gifted Mallsai got me started in bonsai 4 years ago. Im 34 if we are keeping a tally.

- Instant gratification we all have it to an extent. The younger we are the harder that is to fight I think. Just part of life in the USA right now.
- Some people don't have a healthy thick skin. We bonsai people should make a bit of an effort to not drive off newbies. Be yourself just try not to eviscerate the newbies trees.
- I really wish we had better Mallsai. Not Chinese grown garbage but USA grown natives. Maybe more people would try harder if they were gifted a hackberry?
- Taking Bonsai to those in horticulture would probably get some more people. At least the trees would live.
- Teaming with 4H. What an idea. The have access to land, water, and free organic fertilizer :p

So how to get the youngsters (0-25)? Personal thought on this :
- Bonsai work spaces and a place to leave your tree. Think a community garden but for bonsai and maybe caretakers to water.
- Some young people need goals they can see. Something like an apprentice working on basics to get the chance to work on better material. A mentor allowing their student to work on decent trees. This would build more skills and hopefully greater passion for bonsai.
- Willing mentors close by. I know of very few people in my Bonsai group that do any mentoring. That's kinda sad I think. I hope I am skilled enough some day to impart knowledge and assist those starting their bonsai journey.

Just about every post has gleaned some idea or thought prolong information. Well done nuts :cool:
 
News for ya. Bonsai has NEVER been a thing younger people want to do. It was true when I started back in the early 90's. It's true today, only there are more electronic online distractions nowadays. As said before, bonsai doesn't lend itself well to the more mobile lifestyle of folks under 35 and especially under 30. They simply don't have the room or the resources to keep bonsai without significant sacrifice.

I believe the deepest interest comes from people who have actually seen bonsai in person, not online. That INTEREST, not participation, is what is needed for younger people. Establishing that interest is like depositing money in the bank. Younger people who are interested in bonsai will circle back around when they have a way to keep trees --like a house and a yard.

The target audience to get new participants is mid-30's, I believe. That is when people are acquiring the means to actually keep bonsai.

I know that the bonsai at the National Arboretum have been motivators for a lot of enthusiasts. It was for me. Seeing that bonsai aren't cute widdle delicate twees, but wild, rugged trees that speak to you with detail unavailable via a screen was a powerful motivator in my early years.

I know I'm spoiled being so close to such a collection, though.

A way to "get bonsai to the people" and spark a deeper interest could be through a local or regional traveling exhibit. I know that there such traveling educational exhibitions for a number of things
http://www.mobileedproductions.com/reptiles-natural-science-school-assemblies

That kind of format with bonsai is certainly possible. Could be a place to start...
 
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The fastest way to gain newcomers young and old would be to have a bonsai presence on TV. It has a big impact in the astronomy community whenever the BBC do their annual live stargazing show. And that is certainly a small, niche market that is seen as something that older people do.
First year it caught all the retailers out and there was a shortage of stock and it added plenty of fresh faces to the local societies, definitely got the backs up of a few old timers as well.
Don't even know where you would have to start to pitch something like that but a place like Netflix or amazon may be more willing to take a risk on it.

Heck even a fictional show just set in the world of bonsai would do it. You know something like Breaking Bad but with bonsai, it could be called something like The Wire.
Oh wait.... but still.
Gotta push those Hollywood contacts.

I can't help but wonder how the bonsai community would react to an all of the sudden huge spike of interest though, could it handle it?
 
Bonsai is to be used for inspiring ideas in the various Art forms.

It was never meant to be what is being - COMMERCIALLY - attempted today.
It will fail.

Bonsai takes hold of folk who like caring for things and have a certain amount of self discipline.

These folk often like to be independent and work quietly, with a few friends.
Making time for the things they care for.

You can advertise as much as you want, but only those who care and are disciplined will last
with Bonsai.

Thank goodness we live in an age where books are plentiful and Karate Kid / Kung Fu movies
are still around.
On our side the Bonsai Society maxed out at 200 folk and then died down to the hardcore 20
or so.

An attempt was made to form a second Bonsai group and the same will probably happen, membership
is presently around 40.

Bonsai is for folk who care and are independent, it is often love that keeps one going.
Yes, some are commercial and some worry about being masters of an impermanent state, but that will
always happen.

You do Bonsai and 20 or so will show up, 1 to 5 may try and probably 1 will take.
BUT what an adventure, that 1 will have.

BONSAI WILL NEVER DIE< unless the earth loses all of it's trees/shrubs, weeds etc.

IT IS AS IT SHOULD BE.
Good Day
Anthony
 
Now my dilemma....

How to get the best bang for my buck and reach the maximum number of younger people in the 15-35 age group.

I looked at your post count. I have no idea about your reading habits here, and you may be a lurker that reads voraciously. Based on daily participation, countless threads on styling, growing, and propagating bonsai, it is the 15 - 35 crowd that is where most of the problems arise on even this small discussion group. Blame it on societal evolution, being spoiled, or access to so many resources about bonsai that everyone is a internet master.

Every retail advertiser and every politician is trying to figure out how to access that generation. Sometimes bonsai has to skip a generation or two.....
 
@Woody Carverton I was initially pretty turned off to Ryan by his ego and demeanor. After some time I came around on my opinion of him. It turns out that he doesn't tear others down, he is full of enthusiasm, and he does express some humility.

These traits seems to come out when he lets his guard down a little bit. We get that slice of Ryan here in Portland. I suspect he is a bit more guarded and puts up a bit more of a defensive ego wall when alone and amongst strangers in a high pressure environment.
 
When you see defensiveness, ego, self-assuredness that crosses the line into arrogance, the underlying cause is often just a lack of self-confidence. I think most of us had more trouble with that when we were younger. Eventually most of us become comfortable with who we are, what we can do, when we need to ask for help, etc. It's a normal process of maturity. That, and life slapping the arrogance out of you on a regular basis. I find myself wishing I had been better when I was younger, and trying to see the past the surface with the young people I interact with now.
 
The fastest way to gain newcomers young and old would be to have a bonsai presence on TV. It has a big impact in the astronomy community whenever the BBC do their annual live stargazing show. And that is certainly a small, niche market that is seen as something that older people do.
First year it caught all the retailers out and there was a shortage of stock and it added plenty of fresh faces to the local societies, definitely got the backs up of a few old timers as well.
Don't even know where you would have to start to pitch something like that but a place like Netflix or amazon may be more willing to take a risk on it.

Heck even a fictional show just set in the world of bonsai would do it. You know something like Breaking Bad but with bonsai, it could be called something like The Wire.
Oh wait.... but still.
Gotta push those Hollywood contacts.

I can't help but wonder how the bonsai community would react to an all of the sudden huge spike of interest though, could it handle it?

I think you've hit upon the idea...bonsai needs it's own Bob Ross. Instead of "anyone can paint", "anyone can do bonsai." Happy little trees!
 
I think you've hit upon the idea...bonsai needs it's own Bob Ross. Instead of "anyone can paint", "anyone can do bonsai." Happy little trees!

New Horizons in Bonsai was a show on PBS.

That was pretty damn close to a Bob Ross, in season 1. He was in Florida and used tropicals.

But, he unraveled in season 2. Rumor has it he died from the sphagnum moss he used, but his affectations suggest some sort of stimulant drug addiction.
 
Trying to get people to like what you like is a waste of time. I've gone through it with various hobbies over the years. I've given up trying to get people to take up a hobby I enjoy. I just do what I enjoy and if someone comes to me because they are interested, I'm happy to help.

For now I just focus on my kids. They help me with very minor bonsai tasks and gardening around the yard. They are getting better at identifying the different species and they each have their own tree on the bench. If their interests grows as they do then great. If not, oh well it's not for them.
 
Trying to get people to like what you like is a waste of time. I've gone through it with various hobbies over the years. I've given up trying to get people to take up a hobby I enjoy. I just do what I enjoy and if someone comes to me because they are interested, I'm happy to help.

For now I just focus on my kids. They help me with very minor bonsai tasks and gardening around the yard. They are getting better at identifying the different species and they each have their own tree on the bench. If their interests grows as they do then great. If not, oh well it's not for them.

This is the ideal situation, I think. Your kids are exposed to bonsai on a regular basis, but you're not forcing it on them. Even if they don't show any interest now, they at least are aware of it and that increases the chances they'll come back to it later. So I would pretty much agree with @rockm when he suggests targeting people in their 30s, get people like that involved and then their kids will see it up close and personal. Probably more bang for the buck that way.
 
New Horizons in Bonsai was a show on PBS.

That was pretty damn close to a Bob Ross, in season 1. He was in Florida and used tropicals.

But, he unraveled in season 2. Rumor has it he died from the sphagnum moss he used, but his affectations suggest some sort of stimulant drug addiction.
It's not a rumor, Brian Batchelder died from sportrichosis, an infection in his lung from working with sphagnum moss, not from some drug overdose.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporotrichosis

That show was interesting, but TV is probably not the way to go, at least traditional TV, which is on its death bed. A streaming program from Netflix, etc. would be more on target, but educational stuff isn't in their mix (unless you count documentaries)...
 
FWIW, bonsai turns up in the strangest places in the media. I was watching "The Godfather: Part II" on cable the other day. In the scenes from Michael Corleoni's Lake Tahoe compound, there are over a dozen "bonsai" inside and outside the main house on shelves and on windowwills. They're awful little trees, but there they are...
 
Apprentice ----------- one who is paid a small sum /meals/ clothing by a Master to be allowed to train.
Chores are at first just basic and one works one's way up.

It is not a you pay the Master situation, that's school.

Works fine for the Japanese Gvt. as it brings in foreign exchange, so of course they will smile on Bonsai.

Secondly, Bonsai is mumbled as being an Art ------------ how many of the Masters actually have done any art
and are not just redoing the old redoing ?

Bonsai is a hobby, and not many have the time or interest in watering and pruning plants.

@rockm,

there is another chap on Youtube using the Batchelder technique.
We have the book, but were warned about something called ------ sudden death - by I believe Jerry Meislick,
on IBC.

Tried the idea with our Cocoa moss and it worked for the 3 years I believe the plant was grown in just
cocoa moss.

Plus, isn't the sphag moss sterilised by steam ?
Good Day
Anthony
 
It's not a rumor, Brian Batchelder died from sportrichosis, an infection in his lung from working with sphagnum moss, not from some drug overdose.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporotrichosis

That show was interesting, but TV is probably not the way to go, at least traditional TV, which is on its death bed. A streaming program from Netflix, etc. would be more on target, but educational stuff isn't in their mix (unless you count documentaries)...

Is there some way to confirm that? Not that an obituary would give a cause of death, but I can't even find that.
 
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