Advice going forward with a new Picea Abies (Norway Spruce)

[Syltis]

Hi!

I am fairly new to bonsai and to this forum. I am loving the hobby though, so I'm mostly working on getting more trees to put my hands on. I recently went looking through nurseries for Norway Spruce (Picea Abies) and this was the only one I found. I wanted a more developed tree I could start styling within a couple of years, as I already own several trees in long-term training.

I liked the look of the trunk and the thickness of the foiliage. There is of course a trunk cut lurking, and I have attached two photos showing where I would hope to do this. The trunk has a bit of a bend, so I would love to go for a informal upright style. Of course the position of the cut is up for change when I get a better look at the branching (it's almost impossible to get a good overview atm due to the dense foliage). The nursery said the tree had been in the pot for years and you can see roots growing out of the pot. I know I will have to repot and maybe cut back the roots a bit, considering I am happy with the current trunk. It would also be nice to get it in a smaller/flatter pot.

I know the cut would be quite drastic, but I would love to be able to start growing a new apex soon, though I also know I need to repot. I can imagine the repot will be taxing on the tree as well. The soil it's in is also pretty garbage, so I will be repotting it in a 2:1:1 mix of akadama, kiryu and pumice.

My questions are; is the trunk cut a good idea, and if so what order would you recommend I do it in, between the cut and the repot? I am super open to suggestions.

Edit: Sorry about all the photos being vertical.

 

[Colorado]

Welcome!

I think you have a solid plan.

I would repot first. That way, you have all that foliage mass to help rebuild the root system. I’d personally wait until the next year to do the trunk chop.

Nice looking Spruce!

 

[Syltis]

Hi Colorado, thank you for your advice and kind words.

As much as I would love to trunk chop this year, I agree on your advice. I like the tree a lot and don't want to take unnecessary risks. I will repot now before the buds break, do some root-work, and watch the vigour of the tree until next year. I am also considering pruning back the first flush of growth on strong branches to promote backbudding and denser growth on the second flush, as described here. I'll read up on that some more though. Thanks.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I prefer the natural option; spruces brend and snap in the winter if there's heavy snow. They are evolutionary adapted to that damage, so I'd make the chop in fall or winter.
As for repotting, I'd do that in spring.

I'd do the repot first, spruces can have a hard time after a repot, and you might lose some branches. If the cut has already been made and then you repot, you might lose your design due to that loss.
With the repot out of the way, you'll know where you're at and how to move forward.

 

[sorce]

described here. I'll

Sorry for the delay, that link needed approval. Just Bonsai4Me!
Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[GreatLakesBrad]

I have a nursery stock Fraser fir that folks here have guided me on - I am going with a repot and root reduction this spring and initial structural pruning that following year soonest. Good luck, looks very happy and healthy.

 

[Syltis]

I prefer the natural option; spruces brend and snap in the winter if there's heavy snow. They are evolutionary adapted to that damage, so I'd make the chop in fall or winter.
As for repotting, I'd do that in spring.

I'd do the repot first, spruces can have a hard time after a repot, and you might lose some branches. If the cut has already been made and then you repot, you might lose your design due to that loss.
With the repot out of the way, you'll know where you're at and how to move forward.

The point about the natural trunk chops is interesting, I will read up on that. It would be sweet if I could perform the cut next winter if the tree stays vigorous, and I will definetily repot very soon. Thanks for the great input.

 

[Syltis]

I have a nursery stock Fraser fir that folks here have guided me on - I am going with a repot and root reduction this spring and initial structural pruning that following year soonest. Good luck, looks very happy and healthy.

Sounds great, and thank you. Good luck to you!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

The point about the natural trunk chops is interesting, I will read up on that. It would be sweet if I could perform the cut next winter if the tree stays vigorous, and I will definetily repot very soon. Thanks for the great input.

With the amount of root reduction this tree is going to need, I'm sure it's going to have a hard time. Unless of course, you plan on reducing the rootball in stages. But that takes years, and if picea abies is as cheap over there as it is here, then there's always room to risk some extra damage. Mine was as big, but for 6 euros I didn't care much. Now, a year after a repot and huge chop back to the lowest three branches, it's starting to get some health back.
Better to take it slow, that way you can at least do something every year. I signed myself up for a 2-3 year wait by going too fast.

 

[GreatLakesBrad]

With the amount of root reduction this tree is going to need, I'm sure it's going to have a hard time. Unless of course, you plan on reducing the rootball in stages. But that takes years, and if picea abies is as cheap over there as it is here, then there's always room to risk some extra damage. Mine was as big, but for 6 euros I didn't care much. Now, a year after a repot and huge chop back to the lowest three branches, it's starting to get some health back.
Better to take it slow, that way you can at least do something every year. I signed myself up for a 2-3 year wait by going too fast.

You performed both root reduction plus significant prune?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

You performed both root reduction plus significant prune?

Yes, and I wish I didn't. The risk I took was calculated, but damn do I suck at math. It'll pull through though. Maybe this year, maybe in 2021. I did the work in winter 2019.

 

[Syltis]

With the amount of root reduction this tree is going to need, I'm sure it's going to have a hard time. Unless of course, you plan on reducing the rootball in stages. But that takes years, and if picea abies is as cheap over there as it is here, then there's always room to risk some extra damage. Mine was as big, but for 6 euros I didn't care much. Now, a year after a repot and huge chop back to the lowest three branches, it's starting to get some health back.
Better to take it slow, that way you can at least do something every year. I signed myself up for a 2-3 year wait by going too fast.

Actually mine were not cheap, trees that size are priced fairly high here. I expect I might have to hold back on the heaviest pruning until the next repot. I will have to decide when I see the roots, but I expect it to be a mess. Glad to hear your tree is doing better though.

I did want to ask though, do you think now is a good time for the repot? We are having temps between -1C (30 Fahr) and 6C (43 fahr). It is technically still winter, as the official norwegian spring starts in a month.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I did it in winter, twice, and nothing bad happened. But I still believe the start of spring should be better.

 

[Syltis]

I did it in winter, twice, and nothing bad happened. But I still believe the start of spring should be better.

I read up some more and have decided to wait for a couple of weeks; at least until we no longer have below-0C days. Again thanks for the input, I think I'll update this thread during/after the repot.

 

[GreatLakesBrad]

I read up some more and have decided to wait for a couple of weeks; at least until we no longer have below-0C days. Again thanks for the input, I think I'll update this thread during/after the repot.

Look forward to updates.

 

[Syltis]

Hello again.

So I went ahead and repotted this guy into the abovementioned soil mix. It was a mess. The tree must have been in that pot for many years. My plan was mild root reduction and of course no bare-rooting.
Here are some photos, I would greatly appreciate your throughts and feedback.

When removing the pot I was met with this white stuff and a million tiny white bugs which I figured was Green Spruce Aphids. the white was only on one side of the rootsystem. I made sure to move my other trees far away from these guys.




The roots were very hard to work through. After a while I noticed a lot of clay like mud in the middle of the tree. The whole rootsystem seemed split up, with almost separate rootballs on on the top and at the bottom, with the bottom being the thickest. The middle was almost just solid clay.



As mentioned I was not going to bare-root the tree, but I wanted to get rid of most of the clay as it would retain water in a very different way than the soild I was going to use.

Here we can see the root system as it was before I potted it. It seemes derived of soil, but there is still a good bit of soil/clay in the middle, directly under the trunk.


I did not perform any root pruning beyong this, as just removing the soil included removing a lot of roots. This meant putting it in a pot only slightly smaller than the original.
I potted it, made sure to remove any air-pockets, and drenched it. I hope the final drenching did not harm the mycorrhiza to much.


The whole process took three hours. I cannot say I'm not worried though. The bugs, all the white stuff, the extreme amount of the clay-ish soil, and the amount of roots I had to remove all makes me a bit unsure of it's survival ability. Right now I'm keeping it in the shade away from wind. I am also going to apply some weak organic fertilizer (NPK 3-0,3-1) within the first week. Then I will leave the tree until next winter. If it's in good health then, I will perform the trunk chop I mentioned previously.

I do have some questions though.

• What was all the white stuff? Mycorrhiza?
• Why do you think there was so much clay in the middle of the rootsystem?
• Should I do anything about the bugs? They were only on the outsides of the rootsystem and I could not find any on the tree.

Thank you for reading my post. I will keep updating.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Lump of clay, suggests the nursery just took a "ball and burlap" tree, maybe did, maybe did not remove the burlap, plopped it in a nursery pot, filled in with "good nursery mix" which is usually near 100% composted bark, and let it grow. It might have gotten moved up one contain size some years later. Hence nursery mix top & bottom, clay in the middle. They never put more than 3 minutes into repotting per tree.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Within the next week, I would treat with a pesticide, use the pesticide as a soil drench. Be certain the pesticide is labeled for root aphids. If it does not mention root aphids, the pesticide will not work. Read labels carefully.

Drench the tree, I would make up a bucket of pesticide solution and plunge the pot into the solution you want to saturate the entire root ball, leave no part untreated.

Repeat treatment at the interval the label recommends. Somewhere around 5 day to 14 days between treatments. Frequency depends on length of time the pesticide has residual activity, and how quickly the root aphid can go from egg to breeding adult. Eggs are usually immune to pesticides, the second treatment needs to happen before newly hatched root aphids can mature into egg laying adults. I would probably do 3 successive treatments to be certain you got them all.

 

[sorce]

Nice.



It'll live.

Sorce

 

[Syltis]

Within the next week, I would treat with a pesticide, use the pesticide as a soil drench. Be certain the pesticide is labeled for root aphids. If it does not mention root aphids, the pesticide will not work. Read labels carefully.

Drench the tree, I would make up a bucket of pesticide solution and plunge the pot into the solution you want to saturate the entire root ball, leave no part untreated.

Repeat treatment at the interval the label recommends. Somewhere around 5 day to 14 days between treatments. Frequency depends on length of time the pesticide has residual activity, and how quickly the root aphid can go from egg to breeding adult. Eggs are usually immune to pesticides, the second treatment needs to happen before newly hatched root aphids can mature into egg laying adults. I would probably do 3 successive treatments to be certain you got them all.

Thank you so much for the response. I will purchase a pesticide and get to work. I would love so much for the tree to survive.

That cracked me up Sorce, thank you.