American-made ceramics forms

[penumbra]

I'd like to support potters in this country, but I wasn't seeing a lot of what I wanted and also wasn't getting enough of a break in price to warrant their consideration

When you make some pots and realize all of the time and material involved, come back and let us know if your views have changed. You would be lucky to get a couple dollars an hour. I don't.
Consider making the pot. Which is several steps in and of itself that your time is not your own for days at a time concurrently.
Consider cleaning and prepping the pot and assuring a dry enough clay body to bisque fire without a pot explosion.
Consider your bisque fire. Mine averages 12 to 14 hours and can take longer.
Consider the glazing process which can be daunting and take from 3 to 6 layers of glaze allowing for each layer to glaze before applying another layer. I frequently sit up 'till 2:00 am glazing.
Consider final firing which in my case averages 11 to 12 hours firing time alone and does dot include stacking the kiln.
Consider waiting 12 to 24 hours for the kiln to cool enough so glaze and body don't crack or craze.
Consider the results. Which pieces might need re-firing, kiln shelf coatings ruined by glaze overruns, cleaning up feet or bottom of pots, grading into good enough to sell, good for own use, or good for target practice.
This is the easy way, using an electric kiln.
Consider now using a gas kiln, double firing time.
Consider wood firing, quadruple the firing time.

They is only one reason to make a pot and it has nothing to do with money. Very few people reach this level of expertise and/or business acuity.

I am not in any way bellyaching about being a potter. It is an act of creation and at its best an act of love. If you don't like my pot it changes nothing.

 

[cornfed]

Thanks for a peek behind the curtain of what it takes!

I contacted a local potter I have bought other things from in the past about making bonsai pots. He told me that his potters couldn't compete with the commercial bonsai pots in price, so he made other things... Mugs, bowls, art pots. I think he didn't know how much people will pay for the right bonsai pot and was only familiar with mass-market bonsai pots from garden nurseries or big box stores.

 

[thams]

When you make some pots and realize all of the time and material involved, come back and let us know if your views have changed. You would be lucky to get a couple dollars an hour. I don't.
Consider making the pot. Which is several steps in and of itself that your time is not your own for days at a time concurrently.
Consider cleaning and prepping the pot and assuring a dry enough clay body to bisque fire without a pot explosion.
Consider your bisque fire. Mine averages 12 to 14 hours and can take longer.
Consider the glazing process which can be daunting and take from 3 to 6 layers of glaze allowing for each layer to glaze before applying another layer. I frequently sit up 'till 2:00 am glazing.
Consider final firing which in my case averages 11 to 12 hours firing time alone and does dot include stacking the kiln.
Consider waiting 12 to 24 hours for the kiln to cool enough so glaze and body don't crack or craze.
Consider the results. Which pieces might need re-firing, kiln shelf coatings ruined by glaze overruns, cleaning up feet or bottom of pots, grading into good enough to sell, good for own use, or good for target practice.
This is the easy way, using an electric kiln.
Consider now using a gas kiln, double firing time.
Consider wood firing, quadruple the firing time.

They is only one reason to make a pot and it has nothing to do with money. Very few people reach this level of expertise and/or business acuity.

I am not in any way bellyaching about being a potter. It is an act of creation and at its best an act of love. If you don't like my pot it changes nothing.

It's a harsh reality of pot making (or any art for that matter) that unless someone is absolutely obsessed with perfection, their pots likely won't rise to the standard of show quality - at least the big shows anyway. I would never discourage anyone from making pots, especially if it brings them joy. It's a tough business to excel in though. Most buyers expect near perfection since that's what they're used to in many Japanese pots. All we can do is keeping raising standards here in the US. I understand that not all potters aspire to produce show quality pots. There's certainly nothing wrong with that, but those potters will never progress to the upper echelon of potters as bonsai grows here in the US.

 

[penumbra]

Thanks for a peek behind the curtain of what it takes!

That was the totality of my intent. Thank you.

but those potters will never progress to the upper echelon of potters as bonsai grows here in the US.

and those potters don't really care.......
Potter's who make bonsai pots are a very tiny percentage of the pottery industry. I know about a hundred or so potters. I know some that get over $100 for a mug. I personally have spent over $100 for a few of my mugs. I know personally face to face 2 other potters that make bonsai pots. I can make and sell 4 fruit bowls for every bonsai pot using the same amount of clay and with broader parameters. I have 50 places in a 50 mile radius I can sell a fruit bowl and 3 or 4 places I can sell a bonsai pot. Yet the pleasure I get from making a bonsai pot is greater because it combines two passions.

 

[thams]

and those potters don't really care.......
Potter's who make bonsai pots are a very tiny percentage of the pottery industry. I know about a hundred or so potters. I know some that get over $100 for a mug. I personally have spent over $100 for a few of my mugs. I know personally face to face 2 other potters that make bonsai pots. I can make and sell 4 fruit bowls for every bonsai pot using the same amount of clay and with broader parameters. I have 50 places in a 50 mile radius I can sell a fruit bowl and 3 or 4 places I can sell a bonsai pot. Yet the pleasure I get from making a bonsai pot is greater because it combines two passions.

Of course there will always be potters that solely make pots for the love of it. BUT, I would argue that even the potters whose pots command high prices still really only make pots for the love of it. For instance, ask Roy how many of his pots are ruined during firing because of how he re-fires them over and over. For the hours and hours he puts in making pots, mixing glazes, and all that he only gets a handful that survives. I'd be surprised if he makes much of a profit at all compared to the time and materials it takes to make them. But he's obsessed with perfection, which is what's needed to be great. And I think we need more great pots available to us made by US potters to increase the prestige of bonsai here. Not all potters want the same thing, I get that. But I'd love to see the standards increase across the board for our trees and pots in the US.

 

[StoneForest]

I've come late to this conversation as I haven't dropped in on BN for awhile, but I am a full-time fine art potter who is moving toward doing bonsai only. I'd like to be included in your list of US potters if you see fit. It's a difficult decision to give up functional ceramics, which have served me well for over fifteen years, but I have found there is a good market for well-made pots and I just enjoy growing bonsai myself. I studied bonsai and bonsai pots for almost two years before I offered any for sale. I do agree that slab-built pots are a pain the butt (and more prone to loss from joint cracks and warping), and wheel-thrown are easier and faster, which is why there are so many of them. But I can make a rectangular or oval pot by throwing the walls on the wheel and forming into the desired shape, then attaching to a slab bottom. Personally I am loving making more rectangular pots with the Japanese kurinuki process (carving a pot out of a solid block of clay), probably because I love to sculpt. I also do quite a few freeform pots. I'll drop some pics of my work here. My website is www.stoneforestpottery.com and right now I'm mostly selling on the auction sites.

 

[thams]

I've come late to this conversation as I haven't dropped in on BN for awhile, but I am a full-time fine art potter who is moving toward doing bonsai only. I'd like to be included in your list of US potters if you see fit. It's a difficult decision to give up functional ceramics, which have served me well for over fifteen years, but I have found there is a good market for well-made pots and I just enjoy growing bonsai myself. I studied bonsai and bonsai pots for almost two years before I offered any for sale. I do agree that slab-built pots are a pain the butt (and more prone to loss from joint cracks and warping), and wheel-thrown are easier and faster, which is why there are so many of them. But I can make a rectangular or oval pot by throwing the walls on the wheel and forming into the desired shape, then attaching to a slab bottom. Personally I am loving making more rectangular pots with the Japanese kurinuki process (carving a pot out of a solid block of clay), probably because I love to sculpt. I also do quite a few freeform pots. I'll drop some pics of my work here. My website is www.stoneforestpottery.com and right now I'm mostly selling on the auction sites.

Very cool! I like a lot of your motifs on the platters as well on your site. It would be interesting to something like the "running hare" on a pot. It would probably be challenging to pair with a tree, but really cool nonetheless.

I'd love to include you on my website! I'll shoot you a PM when I have a few minutes tonight or tomorrow morning.

 

[sorce]

fruit bowl

I'm going to request you get an early name change to "fruit bowl".

Fruit Bowl.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

It's no longer a buyer's market...

It's a Fruit Market! Lol!

Fresh peaches are the easiest way to prevent the need for "Potters Pepto"!

Like slip....keep it runny! Lol!



Sorce

 

[mrcasey]

I believe that one of the reasons American made bonsai pot forms seem so lacking is because
our bonsai potters tend not to use molds.

I don't know for sure, but it looks to me like a lot of the big name 19th century Japanese potters
were using slabs in ram molds as opposed to "hand building with slabs". There's a huge
difference in the level of skill and craftsmanship needed for these two methods.
Hell, I sometimes wonder if all of these name Japanese potters even made the molds that they used.
Many of the structural designs look almost identical.

When I look at images of purely "hand built" pots from the name Japanese guys, I see the warps, asymmetry,
and clumsiness of form that we see from many American hand builders.

As a purely nuts n bolts observation, I think that a lot of amateur American slab pot builders would improve the
look of their work if they used thicker rims, softened all sharp edges to a uniform curve, and dried their pots upside down.

 

[dsvarney99]

Where can folks find your wares?

(Any kin to Jim?)

I am currently working on a website right now.. My Instagram and Facebook are "Dsvpottery." Pictures of bonsai pots are spread throughout the posts, as I make many other things as well. If you see something you like shoot me a DM on Facebook or Instagram and I can send more pictures, etc. I do custom orders all of the time.
Jim? I don't think so..
I'll attach pictures of a few of my pots here.

 

[sorce]

All that needed to be said.

However, I find this to be untrue.

dried their pots upside down.

At least when allowing to dry open from the top down. Since the taper goes in, the shrink is working with pot.
If upside down, the smaller section gets smaller first, putting more stress on the larger part trying to "catch up".
Also, the rim being the last place to dry means it stays flexible the longest, this will likely cause more warping.

Of course this process changes if covered in plastic, but I don't play that Shiiiiiit!

I thank you for noticing the difference in builds.

I was going to say "it's about time someone mentioned it", but I think that few people are as educated to the differences.

We've been speaking of "Japanese Pottery" as of it is one thing. The YouTube video shows the potters of Tokoname all using different methods.

I don't think our culture is one that can stand too many mold built pots.

Sorce

Sorce

 

[mrcasey]

* Ack - that should read "20th century potters".

 

[mrcasey]

All that needed to be said.

However, I find this to be untrue.


At least when allowing to dry open from the top down. Since the taper goes in, the shrink is working with pot.
If upside down, the smaller section gets smaller first, putting more stress on the larger part trying to "catch up".
Also, the rim being the last place to dry means it stays flexible the longest, this will likely cause more warping.

Of course this process changes if covered in plastic, but I don't play that Shiiiiiit!

I thank you for noticing the difference in builds.

I was going to say "it's about time someone mentioned it", but I think that few people are as educated to the differences.

We've been speaking of "Japanese Pottery" as of it is one thing. The YouTube video shows the potters of Tokoname all using different methods.

I don't think our culture is one that can stand too many mold built pots.

Sorce

Sorce

The reasoning here seems plausible, but in my experience, much warping seems to be mitigated by drying the pot upside down on a very flat surface (like a thick mirror). I then use water on that flat surface to level up the feet (pot still green ware). Unlike you, I also dry my pots draped loosely under plastic. From my perspective, the most distracting imperfection on a typical pot is a warped rim.

One thing that would be really useful to me would be some hard nosed critiques from serious bonsai folks who also understand ceramics. Some of that can be done through pictures online, but it just ain't the same.

 

[sorce]

One thing that would be really useful to me would be some hard nosed critiques from serious bonsai folks who also understand ceramics. Some of that can be done through pictures online, but it just ain't the same.

I was lucky enough to get an impromptu critique from Walter in person.

I watched a YouTube video on Tom Turner's collection recently that made me wanna work harder to take advantage of a possible opportunity to go see some antique wares I'm his collection and get his critique.

I think an empty pot with a warped wall is ugly, I was touching on that before. Not that I love it, but I don't hate it. I think planting them changes that.

Anyway, made me think about how there is 2 categories of "professionals". One who plant pots for the art of it. One who really understand ceramics.

Unfortunately, there are not many who really understand ceramics, this sort of leads to this "fake market" that we have.

1. Pretentious Garbage.
2. Pretentious (hard to use) decent wares.
These try to mimick a deep respect for ceramics and the mix of the 2 makes that idea fall flat. (Upper echelon)
3. Decent wares that should be in the upper echelon, but they're "not" so no one knows why the prices are so high.
4. Decent wares that are hard to find or by potters who don't care to upper exchel.
The BS of the first 2 just cloud this picture losing these artists
5. Garbage Garbage.
6. Regular Garbage.

I think the largest problem we have, is bonsai folks who became potters, to no fault of their own except maybe some laziness, never really care enough to become good potters, more just "bellyaching" about how long things take. Seems they are asking people to pay for them sucking, rather than their dedication to education and hard work.
Then you have good potters who begin doing bonsai pots. Aesthetically, they find it hard to move away from pizazz. Worst, they will have picked up many habits in firing that will never show Problems in a mug, but will be devastating to a pot meant for the rigours of bonsai.

That leads to a large variation in quality that goes unnoticed, especially when most pots go unused for years.
That leads to a "fake market".

Sorce

 

[sorce]

@Forsoothe! here are those more pics of this here Fruit Bowl Pot! AKA @penumbra . Hell, I'd put the same drainage holes in the fruit bowls!



Great Pot.

Sorce

 

[NaoTK]

5. Garbage Garbage.
6. Regular Garbage.

My body of work investigates the subtle contrast between Garbage Garbage and Regular Garbage

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@NaoTK - I admire your pots, they are not garbage.

The "requirement" that a exhibition tree be in a pot with patina is over-blown pretention. If the pot pairs well with the tree, nobody will care if there is patina or not. In the show circuit there is a group who adhere to arbitrary "rules" with "cult like fanaticism". "Its only good if it is 200 year old Chinese antique", that is simply pretension. If the tree and the pot are well matched, it does not matter if the pot is only a few months old.

It is true, some pots that the Chinese and Japanese made were brilliant colors, for example bright yellow. Those glazes are horrible when new. But leave them out in the sun and rain for 200 years and the color fades to a nice mellow color that goes well with many trees. That is in part why antique pots are the rage, the "ugly colors" have mellowed to something acceptable.

Why not just use a new pot with a nice mellow, soft colored glaze? If a new pot looks good, you would be a fool to not use it.

There are very few actual "rules" in bonsai. Pairing a pot and a tree is one of those areas where the owner of the tree is free to do as they like. We all want to show our trees to their best advantage, the pot should be supportive of the tree. The pot should not compete with the tree. In general, pots that in isolation look boring will probably pair better with a wider array of trees than a pot that looks dramatic.

 

[sorce]

This is my orange stoneware, a porcelain, and red river clay swirled. With Japanese Feldspar and Mica Chunk inclusion. Loclayglaze with Blue brushmarks.



Sorce

 

[mrcasey]

Ha! Speaking of yellow glazes, here's a pot I made a couple of years ago. I was perusing Michael Ryan Bell's site and and the Tokoname site and decided I had to try and make one of these obnoxiously bright yellow pots. The clay is a white stone ware and the glaze is just a clear gloss with about 12% praseodymium oxide stain. It's 12 1/2" long and about 3 1/2" deep. Wheel thrown. Maybe in 100 years, it will tone down enough to be used?