Being from the Southeast and having only been to Washington and Oregon a couple of times please pardon my ignorance on this subject...................but do all redwoods have broken off apexes? It seems like everyone is jinning apexes on evergreens. Creating and maintaining an apex in scale is one of the hardest things to do in bonsai and maybe that has something to do with it. Rarely does one see a jinned apex on the Japanese trees., and I would say they are more rare in nature than trees with live apexes. Just an observation and not trying to be cynical. I actually walked into a bonsai nursery two weeks ago and asked to see the evergreens without jinned apexes. There were only 5! My teacher and I have had conversations about this too, so its not just me noticing this trend.
Another Cryptomeria - Imitating a Sequoia or Redwood
- Thread starter grouper52
- Start date
grouper52
Masterpiece
Al and Bill - you are correct about the foliage & jin. As I said in the blurb that accompanied the photo, that's my plan for later this season. Right now I'm just letting it grow out a bit to get some vigor. The other photo was taken much later in the season after the trimming.
cquinn, there are two reasons for the preponderance of jinned tops - no make that three. First, on this particular tree, if you look at the first photo, I think you'll agree that this was a very expedient process with this material.
But there is much more to it than expedience, and the other two reasons have to do with how trees age.
A tree that gives a look of age and antiquity is much more visually interesting than a juvenile tree, both in nature and in bonsai, in the opinion of many. Of course there are many more juvenile trees in nature than old growth denizens, especially with the logging of the past few centuries. But the old survivors are the most impressive and interesting if you know where to go to see them. And people do - no one goes out on an arduous trip to see juvenile trees.
Ancient trees, especially the fascinating ones growing in rugged conditions, are set apart by a number of characteristics. Their growth is more sparse, more unruly, less apical, more irregular, and this is especially true of their tops. The US Forest Service defines an old growth tree as one that has three characteristics: lack of taper, thick bark, and a flat or disorganized top.
Trees age from the top down. This probably has to do with hydraulics: the amount of liquid that can flow through a tube is proportional to its length. From the moment a seed sprouts, the "tube" that carries water from one end to the other increases in length. The roots ramify, but they usually don't back bud without necessity, and the tree's growth apically is also mostly outward. As the distance between the growing root tips and the growing apex reaches a limit, different for different species, the optimal amount of water and nutrients conveyed up to the apex begins to decline, and the tree starts to die back in stages from the top. First it flattens, then it gets disorganized, then it simply dies. It may continue to put out new attempts at apices further down, often resulting in the candelabra look, but most species don't.
So the tops of truly ancient trees are often dead, whether lightning plays a part of not. You can see this in old growth stands, and a marvelously illustrative photo will appear in the book I'm putting out this fall about Dan Robinson, who has lead the way in America in the naturalistic style. An increasing number of bonsai practitioners in America are becoming influenced by this style, and that may also account for the move away from the very artificial looking tops seen in the Japanese style, towards the naturalistic and Chinese styles, both of whom learned styling more by looking at old trees in nature than by merely looking at other bonsai.
Hope that helps you to understand the trend. People can still do the manicured juvenile tree look if they desire, but those trees all pretty much look the same after a while, and look pretty unintersting to a number of us.
cquinn, there are two reasons for the preponderance of jinned tops - no make that three. First, on this particular tree, if you look at the first photo, I think you'll agree that this was a very expedient process with this material.
But there is much more to it than expedience, and the other two reasons have to do with how trees age.
A tree that gives a look of age and antiquity is much more visually interesting than a juvenile tree, both in nature and in bonsai, in the opinion of many. Of course there are many more juvenile trees in nature than old growth denizens, especially with the logging of the past few centuries. But the old survivors are the most impressive and interesting if you know where to go to see them. And people do - no one goes out on an arduous trip to see juvenile trees.
Ancient trees, especially the fascinating ones growing in rugged conditions, are set apart by a number of characteristics. Their growth is more sparse, more unruly, less apical, more irregular, and this is especially true of their tops. The US Forest Service defines an old growth tree as one that has three characteristics: lack of taper, thick bark, and a flat or disorganized top.
Trees age from the top down. This probably has to do with hydraulics: the amount of liquid that can flow through a tube is proportional to its length. From the moment a seed sprouts, the "tube" that carries water from one end to the other increases in length. The roots ramify, but they usually don't back bud without necessity, and the tree's growth apically is also mostly outward. As the distance between the growing root tips and the growing apex reaches a limit, different for different species, the optimal amount of water and nutrients conveyed up to the apex begins to decline, and the tree starts to die back in stages from the top. First it flattens, then it gets disorganized, then it simply dies. It may continue to put out new attempts at apices further down, often resulting in the candelabra look, but most species don't.
So the tops of truly ancient trees are often dead, whether lightning plays a part of not. You can see this in old growth stands, and a marvelously illustrative photo will appear in the book I'm putting out this fall about Dan Robinson, who has lead the way in America in the naturalistic style. An increasing number of bonsai practitioners in America are becoming influenced by this style, and that may also account for the move away from the very artificial looking tops seen in the Japanese style, towards the naturalistic and Chinese styles, both of whom learned styling more by looking at old trees in nature than by merely looking at other bonsai.
Hope that helps you to understand the trend. People can still do the manicured juvenile tree look if they desire, but those trees all pretty much look the same after a while, and look pretty unintersting to a number of us.
Victrinia Ridgeway
Omono
Will...
When you got it out of the can and into it's first pot... how much transition did you do? I think Eric is about ready to tear into his own crypto project, but I wonder if it shouldn't go into an anderson flat first???
V
When you got it out of the can and into it's first pot... how much transition did you do? I think Eric is about ready to tear into his own crypto project, but I wonder if it shouldn't go into an anderson flat first???
V
ghues
Omono
To add to Will’s response to cquinn’s reply, I’d like to show a couple of photos that provide an example on the theory of dead/jin’d tops.
As a side note I’m north of Will in BC Canada and even though there has been a lot of harvesting in the past, the province has 13% of its land base in a “protected” status. So this provides us with a great opportunity to view the characteristics of old growth stands (which has an age limit of 240 years plus).
The mountain hemlock- photos #3 (Tsuga mertensiana) shown in the picture grows on a really exposed ridge where it receives over 5 meters of snow a year (over 6m this year). It also amazes me how much foliage mass it carries for such a beat up ol' thing.
The other two photos #1 and #2 - show examples of yellow cedar (Callitropsis nootkatensis), formerly Cupressus nootkatensis, Xanthocyparis nootkatensis or Chamaecyparis nootkatensis).
Cheers Graham
As a side note I’m north of Will in BC Canada and even though there has been a lot of harvesting in the past, the province has 13% of its land base in a “protected” status. So this provides us with a great opportunity to view the characteristics of old growth stands (which has an age limit of 240 years plus).
The mountain hemlock- photos #3 (Tsuga mertensiana) shown in the picture grows on a really exposed ridge where it receives over 5 meters of snow a year (over 6m this year). It also amazes me how much foliage mass it carries for such a beat up ol' thing.
The other two photos #1 and #2 - show examples of yellow cedar (Callitropsis nootkatensis), formerly Cupressus nootkatensis, Xanthocyparis nootkatensis or Chamaecyparis nootkatensis).
Cheers Graham
Attachments
grouper52
Masterpiece
Not much transition, Vic - there were lots of good feeder roots near the surface when I explored the root ball a bit, so I just took a saw to the whole thing about 4-6" below the soil surface as I recall, and more over the next few years. These things are really hardy, resilient and vigorous growers - in this climate at least - so I don't pamper them too much.
This was the third one I treated this way, and they all did fine, and this is about the time of year that is probably optimal for such work on these.Tell Eric to post the tree in a progression series if he feels up to it. It'd be great to see how he goes at it.
BTW, to answer the question about growing them in So Cal, I don't think they will do as well there as they do in our climate here, but they certainly might at least survive - although I cannot guarantee it, and some additional efforts might be required.
I guess it all depends on where you live as to what your influences are. We have few trees in this area that look like that. What we do have are old pines that look like the Japanese style pines with rounded apexes (young ones are ofcourse pointed), ancient Oaks and poplars with lots of ramification. The oldest and largest poplar still living east of the Mississipi is actually only 45 minutes from my house. It's trunk and nebari are massive, and it's limbs and apex are full. So I guess it depends on where you live. Nothing like a hardwood forest in Fall down here. The mountains are yellow,red, and orange at that time. There is also a Gingko growing in a field by itself in the Chickamauga battlefield that two people can not reach around and it looks like the bonsai from Japan, knots and all.
Klytus
Omono
I would like to see that Ginkgo.
october
Masterpiece
About 1 1/2 - 2 years ago... They had a smaller version of this one at the nursery.. It was pre stock that was about 12 inches tall.. Unfortunately, almost all the branches emerged from the trunk with a bulb at the base..very unsightly...Also, most of the branches on the tree emerged from what would be the back.. Needless to say, I did not purchse it..but I do still remember the tree and if it did not have major flaws, would have made a very nice bonsai some day.
Rob
Rob
grouper52
Masterpiece
Graham, thanks for those photos. I have some extras at home that I may try to post that show the same sorts of stuff.
It is indeed true, cquinn, that deciduous trees age much differently than conifers much of the time, although not always, but the same basic forces are at work in the really ancient trees that are not seen in juvenile or merely mature trees.
Down along the coast in North Carolina where my mother used to live, the mature pines do indeed have rounded tops, but way back in the boonies, where a few rare ones have been allowed to really come to the end of their natural lives, you see the same sorts of decline from the top down.
Deciduous trees also often go from a conical stage when young, to a more rounded shape as they mature, then multiple tops when old, and then a decline from the top down whenever a few are allowed to live until they are at the end of their natural lives.
It is indeed true, cquinn, that deciduous trees age much differently than conifers much of the time, although not always, but the same basic forces are at work in the really ancient trees that are not seen in juvenile or merely mature trees.
Down along the coast in North Carolina where my mother used to live, the mature pines do indeed have rounded tops, but way back in the boonies, where a few rare ones have been allowed to really come to the end of their natural lives, you see the same sorts of decline from the top down.
Deciduous trees also often go from a conical stage when young, to a more rounded shape as they mature, then multiple tops when old, and then a decline from the top down whenever a few are allowed to live until they are at the end of their natural lives.
Hey Will,
This is really a great tree! I had not thought about creating that perspective before and my guess is there aren't many species of trees that will allow it to be done so convincingly. One thing I was wondering was how do you maintain the balance between a) the health of the tree through periodic free growth which I feel expects the tree to grow longer branches and b) a design based on the growth being so close to the trunk? How long might you allow the branches to grow?
I love the design and want to create one with a similar perspective but I am a bit intimidated about how to maintain that balance.
Thanks
Ted
This is really a great tree! I had not thought about creating that perspective before and my guess is there aren't many species of trees that will allow it to be done so convincingly. One thing I was wondering was how do you maintain the balance between a) the health of the tree through periodic free growth which I feel expects the tree to grow longer branches and b) a design based on the growth being so close to the trunk? How long might you allow the branches to grow?
I love the design and want to create one with a similar perspective but I am a bit intimidated about how to maintain that balance.
Thanks
Ted
cbobgo
Mame
This actually looks more like a redwood then most of the redwood bonsai I've seen. And I live right smack in redwood country, so I've seen alot.
Good job.
- bob
Good job.
- bob
grouper52
Masterpiece
Ted and Bob, thanks for your kind words about the tree - and great to see you both over here at BNut!
Ted, your questions about the tree are good ones. First, this seems to be a very hardy tree, especially here in this climate. It's tendency to back bud, and especially to put out buds at the base of old branches, should keep it going for quite some time.
Most trees don't always look good - some folks say that a tree typically reaches show quality every three years or so, with the interim spent allow recovery, growth, styling changes, etc. That's been my experience as well.
So I may just let this guy grow unfettered for a season or two from time to time to regain some vigor if need be. Root pruning will often revitalize a top that is losing its vigor as well.
Over the years, if the small branches start to get TOO thick, which I doubt they will in my lifetime, the back budding at the base will provide a realistic replacement, sort of like they do i nature anyway.
Hope that helps.
Will
Ted, your questions about the tree are good ones. First, this seems to be a very hardy tree, especially here in this climate. It's tendency to back bud, and especially to put out buds at the base of old branches, should keep it going for quite some time.
Most trees don't always look good - some folks say that a tree typically reaches show quality every three years or so, with the interim spent allow recovery, growth, styling changes, etc. That's been my experience as well.
So I may just let this guy grow unfettered for a season or two from time to time to regain some vigor if need be. Root pruning will often revitalize a top that is losing its vigor as well.
Over the years, if the small branches start to get TOO thick, which I doubt they will in my lifetime, the back budding at the base will provide a realistic replacement, sort of like they do i nature anyway.
Hope that helps.
Will
grouper52
Masterpiece
CamdenJim
Shohin
Thanks for posting this! I have one from a nursery, not quite so large as yours, that I'm ready to treat in exactly this way.
I can only hope it turns out as well. This one looks great!
Ang3lfir3
Omono
lookin great!!! I might sound like a broken record but this is another one I love to see....
grouper52
Masterpiece
Thanks again, Eric.
It's probably the most convincing tree I've created - these little cryptomerias just lend themselves so easily to it.
I often think it would not look too much out of place in some of old growth stands I've seen in places on the West Coast. It's also one of my favorites to just stand and look at.
It's probably the most convincing tree I've created - these little cryptomerias just lend themselves so easily to it.
I often think it would not look too much out of place in some of old growth stands I've seen in places on the West Coast. It's also one of my favorites to just stand and look at.
grouper52
Masterpiece
BTW, your otaku blog is REALLY nice!
Ang3lfir3
Omono
it is truly reminiscent of some of the trees we have seen here..... reminds me of a giant cedar or hemlock as well....
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