Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Man I smell a Keppler Editorial brewing here....
Bad Advice on the Internet
- Thread starter Anonymous User
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Anonymous User
Banned
Fine, just stay away from my trees please.
I'm sorry, did I say she did?
Actually my statement was that he should slip the roots out and inspect them first before re-potting, root rot is easily determined this way and after obtaining the facts, then a decision could be made. I said about three times...diagnose first and prescribe second. My complaint was that the advice to re-pot (prescription) was given based on assumption only without a diagnoses. I never actually offered any alternatives, mainly because the cause of the stress is unknown, which is the whole point.
Back to that again? My statements were simply that bonsai pots slow down growth, since he needed to thicken branches my advice was ground or large pot growth and not the bonsai pot the BC was in. Certainly sound advice for any species, unless you are arguing the fact that small pots restrict growth. But once again, this is diverting attention away from the topic and subject at hand, something you seem remarkably adept at.
Again, this is about statements made by me on another forum about a contest. It has nothing to do with advice, the topic or subject here, or anything at all with this forum and yet you keep bringing it up like you get paid for each mention. Can you try for once to actually debate the subject here?
Sure, I love the off topic remarks, the unprovoked personal slams, the name calling, and the character assassination.
No Andy, it is posts like yours here in this very thread that disrupts the forum. A few people have stated that they thought the topic was a good one and wanted nothing more than to discuss it. You come in talking about comments made in a contest, about your personal feelings for me, about anything and everything but the topic, even after being asked to focus on the topic, to debate the subject, but you still insist on debating me personally. Once again, can we please stick to debating the subject?
Will
Anonymous User
Banned
Lol, what will this be "A Keppler Editorial VIII"?
I was thinking more of an article...why bad advice can flourish on forums full of experienced people who know better. Is it because no one dares to call a spade a spade anymore? Maybe it is just political correctness at its worse, best not to offend anyone at all...
I remember the days Al, you and a few others like OMC would never let bad advice go unchallenged, even suspicious advice was labeled bad until proved to be otherwise. Man, those were voices to be reckoned with.
Will
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Smoke
Ignore-Amus
My belief is that good stuff will stand on it's own merits. Bad stuff will fade away. Bonsai in the big picture is so insignificant this is almost funny. Who cares, this isn't brain surgery for heavens sake! People are starving in the world, and people were killed in Natures devastateing tornados last week. Yet there is enough energy to argue over a stupid ugly plant.
Anonymous User
Banned
Well, it was ugly, I'll give you that. It is true, the plant wasn't important, however, the budding bonsaist was.
Will
Will
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
My only regret will be that you won't be able to respond to my Editorial. I would have loved to see what you would have written
I too have thought about that at times. There are two schools of thought about this. You are in both of them, because both of them happen to have examples of behavorial changes that I think changed the internet forever. I talked to you by email about this earlier in the last month. I can dance around the edges and give you some background as to how this relates to me.
Scenario One. I remember when a guy named BadByte came to bonsaiTALK green as a two dollar bill, and not that long ago. He came there and argued to the death about why a pot that cost over 20.00 was stupid and that the seller of a Tokoname was just trying to get into someones pocket. It took a long time to get that thru your head. It did happen but at the expense of a lot of pissed off people. Lucky for them they persisted. Those were in the days when knowledgable people would come to the aid and reinforce correct points of view. That does not happen anymore, and if it does, you have to admitt you do not concede much in that department even when you know you are wrong. Lets be fair, I don't always concede either but I know when to walk away from a bad debate thats going no where. Let me rephrase that, I have learned that.
Scene two. I remember a parody I wrote at bonsaiTALK about bonsai and beginners. It was a pretty funny parody and used things like the reverse of everything we do to improve trees. It spawned Master Bates. This was during the beginning of the rep points thingy. During this time I had written a pretty extensive archive of good stuff. During the Master Bates enigma the forum seemed to be split. There was a group that loved everything you did and there was a group that hated everything you did. It polarized the forum. It drove a lot of good people away some of those that would try and set the record strait just did not want to get into a pissing match anymore. Me included.
Those that hated you moved on to other forums, or stayed away from forums all together. Some have come back but the stigma of those days I feel scared the interent forums for life. We all know what my first editorial did when I brought up Will Heath. I didn't even mention you by name as you have claimed here but that didn't hold water with you so why should it hold water here now, ( There was no Nut then so you chose to debate me on AoB that time).
So what have we here?.. you can't seperate Will from the argument. It is Will that is the engine. You are the argument. It's like I've said before about trees. Trees are inanimate objects they do not design themselves artistically. We do things to them. Yes someone can tell me a thousand times to debate the tree, but you can't. It's like talking to a brick wall. You have to talk to the artist and let them know they have no talent. This computer does not type for itself, Some boob types the jibberish in there. Trying to debate the subject is futile. You have to get thru to the writer and change the phiulo, phylosi, pyhiol, uhh..behavior.
The question is how long does one want to spend trying to get to the truth if there even is a truth since both of you and Joanie actually stated opinion and each carried as much weight as the other. There is no need to prove Joanie gave bogus info. There is no need for you to be right. Just state your opinion and leave it at that.
This post I am writing now you may not agree with, you may find fault with it and you may wish to argue about it. It is futile though. It is my opinion and you will not change it. Your opinion is one way and Joanies is another way. Sometimes we all just have to agree to disagree and go work on some trees.
Al
Anonymous User
Banned
Thanks for your opinion on me Al, I'll take it at it's full worth.
Jeeeseee, can anyone just discuss the topic?
Will
agraham
Shohin
I think that there is bad advice on the internet.I don't know what to do about it.I think confronting is less productive than discussing.
I think that most advice is given in good faith,based on the advisors experience.I think even "masters" give bad advice because they don't know the exact circumstances.How could they?Even with 100 questions,they wouldn't know if they are getting correct answers.If they give detailed instructions,they don't know if the questioner is following them as they meant them to.
The internet forum is an imperfect medium for discussing anything as detailed artistically and horticulturaly as bonsai.The best advice given is "join a local club" or "find someone in your area that has been successful with bonsai"."Let them look at your tree,let them guide you".That would make this a pretty cold and boring place.
I don't think the advice given on the other forum was terrible or a good example of "bad" advice.
I think I probably know a lot more about horticulture and bonsai than many who offer advice and criticise others.I definately know a lot less than some who do.
And,I will stay away from Will's award winning trees. http://www.fourseasonsbonsai.org/member_galleries.htm I wouldn't want to harm them.
I have enough of my own to deal with.No awards though.
andy
I think that most advice is given in good faith,based on the advisors experience.I think even "masters" give bad advice because they don't know the exact circumstances.How could they?Even with 100 questions,they wouldn't know if they are getting correct answers.If they give detailed instructions,they don't know if the questioner is following them as they meant them to.
The internet forum is an imperfect medium for discussing anything as detailed artistically and horticulturaly as bonsai.The best advice given is "join a local club" or "find someone in your area that has been successful with bonsai"."Let them look at your tree,let them guide you".That would make this a pretty cold and boring place.
I don't think the advice given on the other forum was terrible or a good example of "bad" advice.
I think I probably know a lot more about horticulture and bonsai than many who offer advice and criticise others.I definately know a lot less than some who do.
And,I will stay away from Will's award winning trees. http://www.fourseasonsbonsai.org/member_galleries.htm I wouldn't want to harm them.
I have enough of my own to deal with.No awards though.
andy
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Boondock
Shohin
I think the "bad advice" or "good advice" given on a bonsai forum is, at least partially based, on the subjectiveness of the subject matter and the nature of artistic expression.
Here's is an example. I have mentioned that I registered on many internet forums. One of the forums I read regularly is bikeforums.net
I have never visited this forum when there has been less than 1500 registered users on-line. I have seen 4500 people online simultaneously.
There is almost never "heated" discussions. The moderators do not have to constantly censor/edit the threads. But this forum is still just a "internet discussion" site, where people of common interest with different levels of experience/knowledge come together.
When I realized this was most likely due to the "nature of bicycles", where a 27.2mm seatposts will never fit into any other size seat-tube. There is still alot of newbies trying to learn about something that interests them, which is really the subject of this thread.
I then went to another forum that I am registered at, to look for similarities. It is a flyfishing forum where there are 2400 active members. I am a flyfisherman, and I belong to a half dozen flyfishing/flytying forums. Flyfishing and fly-tying are less "mechanical" more "artistic", (if done correctly). You add in the competiveness of the sport, and I bet you would think that there are fights, arguments and heated discussions everyday. But NO. It's very civil and the "old heads" consistently give their time and expertise.
These two examples prove that it's not about the number of people who register and participate in forums.
SO, my question is.... Is it the subject of bonsai?
I think not. The same distracting arguments have flowed thru the internet bonsai world with almost perfect continuity. Undoubtedly, this is very apparent.
I think the majority of people who understand the dynamic between the "source of the problem" and the "people in the internet bonsai community", already recognize where the real problem rests. It's written in the history of several bonsai forums, including this one.
I wonder how many times threads have been entirely deleted, or member's posts have been censored/edited on BonsaiNut.com, and the subject/content did not involve/include a single, yet un-named, registered member? My guess is ZERO, or less than 1% of the total censors/edits. This fact, should illuminate another area of disscussion regarding the original concept of this thread.
I think it's rather comical that this thread was started to discuss a subject, and the author of this thread used a thread on another bonsai forum as an example to justify the author's position. I guess if you can't go there and post in that thread, you might as well use bNUT as a grand-stand. I think the subject of this thread is a good one. It was just executed poorly. It's not a bad thing to use other forums as evidence to back-up a position. But knowing that many people who visit both sites may have heart-ache with it, demands a level of diplomacy.
Here's is an example. I have mentioned that I registered on many internet forums. One of the forums I read regularly is bikeforums.net
I have never visited this forum when there has been less than 1500 registered users on-line. I have seen 4500 people online simultaneously.
There is almost never "heated" discussions. The moderators do not have to constantly censor/edit the threads. But this forum is still just a "internet discussion" site, where people of common interest with different levels of experience/knowledge come together.
When I realized this was most likely due to the "nature of bicycles", where a 27.2mm seatposts will never fit into any other size seat-tube. There is still alot of newbies trying to learn about something that interests them, which is really the subject of this thread.
I then went to another forum that I am registered at, to look for similarities. It is a flyfishing forum where there are 2400 active members. I am a flyfisherman, and I belong to a half dozen flyfishing/flytying forums. Flyfishing and fly-tying are less "mechanical" more "artistic", (if done correctly). You add in the competiveness of the sport, and I bet you would think that there are fights, arguments and heated discussions everyday. But NO. It's very civil and the "old heads" consistently give their time and expertise.
These two examples prove that it's not about the number of people who register and participate in forums.
SO, my question is.... Is it the subject of bonsai?
I think not. The same distracting arguments have flowed thru the internet bonsai world with almost perfect continuity. Undoubtedly, this is very apparent.
I think the majority of people who understand the dynamic between the "source of the problem" and the "people in the internet bonsai community", already recognize where the real problem rests. It's written in the history of several bonsai forums, including this one.
I wonder how many times threads have been entirely deleted, or member's posts have been censored/edited on BonsaiNut.com, and the subject/content did not involve/include a single, yet un-named, registered member? My guess is ZERO, or less than 1% of the total censors/edits. This fact, should illuminate another area of disscussion regarding the original concept of this thread.
I think it's rather comical that this thread was started to discuss a subject, and the author of this thread used a thread on another bonsai forum as an example to justify the author's position. I guess if you can't go there and post in that thread, you might as well use bNUT as a grand-stand. I think the subject of this thread is a good one. It was just executed poorly. It's not a bad thing to use other forums as evidence to back-up a position. But knowing that many people who visit both sites may have heart-ache with it, demands a level of diplomacy.
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Anonymous User
Banned
Nice personal attack...again when you can't debate the subject, you attack the author.
I think of all the members here, only Vance Wood has walked through my yard and seen my trees....you Andy will have to be content trowing stones at an outdated gallery, lol, how low they will go to avoid the subject and discredit the author. Let's face it, you're at a loss for intelligent conversation, why bother.
Anonymous User
Banned
The actual facts are very few of my own threads have been deleted here, you Boondock have had a few deleted for personal attacks, now where did you say the problem was? Please show me one instance where I purposely initiated a fight. incited one...I'm afraid all you'll find is me defending against such...I respond, I don't initiate.
The problem is that I pointed out some bad advice, careful not to reveal the source of the same, and the regular members of the place where the advice was given flocked here to lam-blast me. How dare I.
The truth is actually easy to see.
I'll ask again, can we keep on the topic here and not on your personal hate agendas?
Will
Boondock
Shohin
you quoted me asking a simple question. My question was...
But you did not say a single word about the question. You used the quote as a platform to do something other than stay on-topic.
Then you say...
Do you see the incongruity?
I did not intend to attack you. As a matter of fact, I do not think I did. Not every thing people say is about you, Mr Heath. I was trying to express my opinion and viewpoint on this subject.
Calling my opinion a "hate agenda" is an attack. My previous post was not an attack, personal or otherwise. Please do not feel you need to "defend yourself" where and when, nothing was said about you. Lets face it, this 6 page thread is good stuff, but eventually, it will either be edited down to about 2 pages, or deleted entirely. I see it coming already.
As I said, this topic is a good one, and should be addressed. People who are just starting out in bonsai, are the future. Many of the people who visit internet forums have no other source of information and advice. The people who have years of hard-earned experience are a treasure to the internet bonsai community.
When I first became interested in bonsai, I registered on bonsaiTALK, but I was amazed at how the members interacted. It was almost a year of reading and research before I posted my first thread there, because of the way novices are treated. That is the TOPIC OF THIS THREAD. But as seen from the other side.
How many people who are recently interested in bonsai, have read these threads and became disillusioned or disinterested, and then given up?
Can the most respected, knowledgeable, and practiced members of the bonsai community be "trained" to give instruction and advice?
But you did not say a single word about the question. You used the quote as a platform to do something other than stay on-topic.
Then you say...
Do you see the incongruity?
I did not intend to attack you. As a matter of fact, I do not think I did. Not every thing people say is about you, Mr Heath. I was trying to express my opinion and viewpoint on this subject.
Calling my opinion a "hate agenda" is an attack. My previous post was not an attack, personal or otherwise. Please do not feel you need to "defend yourself" where and when, nothing was said about you. Lets face it, this 6 page thread is good stuff, but eventually, it will either be edited down to about 2 pages, or deleted entirely. I see it coming already.
As I said, this topic is a good one, and should be addressed. People who are just starting out in bonsai, are the future. Many of the people who visit internet forums have no other source of information and advice. The people who have years of hard-earned experience are a treasure to the internet bonsai community.
When I first became interested in bonsai, I registered on bonsaiTALK, but I was amazed at how the members interacted. It was almost a year of reading and research before I posted my first thread there, because of the way novices are treated. That is the TOPIC OF THIS THREAD. But as seen from the other side.
How many people who are recently interested in bonsai, have read these threads and became disillusioned or disinterested, and then given up?
Can the most respected, knowledgeable, and practiced members of the bonsai community be "trained" to give instruction and advice?
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I have an idea.
I am a software developer. When a "bug" is found in an application the symptoms are passed along to us for review and to see if we can correct the issue for the user.
We do not waste our time researching the issue until we have some basic required information. Perhaps a template can be constructed that would contain a base set of information that must be first answered by the person seeking help. How many times have we seen the first 10 or so posts of a thread dedicated to "extracting" (sometimes painfully) the necessary information from the person seeking help.
Like this... a person new to Bonsai starts a thread "Help my tree is dying".
We find out the leaves are brownish yellow and some are dropping.
The first response to this plea for help can be our "Template" containing our required info:
Like:
What is the botanical or common name of the tree?
Describe the current soil medium?
How often do you water?
When do you water and why?
Where is the tree located?
How much sun does it get?
What is the current Hi and Lo temp each day?
Where are you located?
How much experience do you have in Bonsai?
How much experience do you have with this type of tree?
I'm sure you guys can add more to this and over time we could come up with a pretty good set of information we must have in order to provide advice based on real data instead of best guesses.
Maybe limit the template to the 10 or fifteen most important questions. If someone really wants help then they should have no problem putting in the time up front to answer these questions. It would also be great to have these threads around later on as a reference. You'd see the "template" questions at the beginning of the thread and then the diagnosis and suggested "treatments" later on.
This would at least speed up the process of gathering the needed info to help. Maybe this would even make it easier for some of our more experienced contributors to actually contribute. I'm sure they get very tired of asking the same questions over and over. The template would do it for them.
Thoughts anyone...
I am a software developer. When a "bug" is found in an application the symptoms are passed along to us for review and to see if we can correct the issue for the user.
We do not waste our time researching the issue until we have some basic required information. Perhaps a template can be constructed that would contain a base set of information that must be first answered by the person seeking help. How many times have we seen the first 10 or so posts of a thread dedicated to "extracting" (sometimes painfully) the necessary information from the person seeking help.
Like this... a person new to Bonsai starts a thread "Help my tree is dying".
We find out the leaves are brownish yellow and some are dropping.
The first response to this plea for help can be our "Template" containing our required info:
Like:
What is the botanical or common name of the tree?
Describe the current soil medium?
How often do you water?
When do you water and why?
Where is the tree located?
How much sun does it get?
What is the current Hi and Lo temp each day?
Where are you located?
How much experience do you have in Bonsai?
How much experience do you have with this type of tree?
I'm sure you guys can add more to this and over time we could come up with a pretty good set of information we must have in order to provide advice based on real data instead of best guesses.
Maybe limit the template to the 10 or fifteen most important questions. If someone really wants help then they should have no problem putting in the time up front to answer these questions. It would also be great to have these threads around later on as a reference. You'd see the "template" questions at the beginning of the thread and then the diagnosis and suggested "treatments" later on.
This would at least speed up the process of gathering the needed info to help. Maybe this would even make it easier for some of our more experienced contributors to actually contribute. I'm sure they get very tired of asking the same questions over and over. The template would do it for them.
Thoughts anyone...
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Anonymous User
Banned
Boondock,
The question I did not answer had nothing to do with the topic of this thread. It did refer to me in your usual off handed manner, your history of hate is well know, your blog supports it, your past posts here supports it. Nothing further needs to be said.
Cray13,
Excellent points made! This is it in a nutshell, diagnose first and then prescribe, not the other way around. The advice given that I referred to here may well be the best advice for the tree IF it does indeed have root rot, my was point then and still is now is that not enough information was known to give advice to re-pot a stressed tree. In the thread mentioned, the admin of the site came on after this advice to re-pot was given and asked the right questions.
I think in the rush to "help" someone, we forget that all may not be as it seems. Questions give us the knowledge we need to make intelligent suggestions and good advice.
Will
The question I did not answer had nothing to do with the topic of this thread. It did refer to me in your usual off handed manner, your history of hate is well know, your blog supports it, your past posts here supports it. Nothing further needs to be said.
Cray13,
Excellent points made! This is it in a nutshell, diagnose first and then prescribe, not the other way around. The advice given that I referred to here may well be the best advice for the tree IF it does indeed have root rot, my was point then and still is now is that not enough information was known to give advice to re-pot a stressed tree. In the thread mentioned, the admin of the site came on after this advice to re-pot was given and asked the right questions.
I think in the rush to "help" someone, we forget that all may not be as it seems. Questions give us the knowledge we need to make intelligent suggestions and good advice.
Will
grouper52
Masterpiece
My experience is the same as Boondock's, that this sort of interpersonal unpleasantness is peculiar only to specialty forums devoted to bonsai. Not sure why.
I like the BNut option here of an "Ignore" list to which we can individually banish such provocateurs. The only other thing I could imagine doing, beyond the administrators editing their input or banning them completely, would be to set up on the site a specific "Tar Baby" forum to which they would be restricted, and where we could go if, for some strange reason, we wanted to play with them.
grouper52
I like the BNut option here of an "Ignore" list to which we can individually banish such provocateurs. The only other thing I could imagine doing, beyond the administrators editing their input or banning them completely, would be to set up on the site a specific "Tar Baby" forum to which they would be restricted, and where we could go if, for some strange reason, we wanted to play with them.
grouper52
Amen to that.
Personally I feel the most frustrating part of discussions like these is that everyone involved has heaps of knowledge they bring to the table. Al, Will, Andy, Chris, et al I have learned 99% of the little I know about bonsai from you and people like yourselves' postings and articles. I don't have people I can learn from hands on so I rely on this medium and have found more knowledge than my pea brain can process. So kudos to all of you.
It's hardly unusual or problematic that everyone doesn't get along or agree. We are humans after all, it's kind of our trademark.
Was Will's original assertion that there is a lot of bad advice out there that gets passed along unchallenged true? Truth is pretty subjective but I'd say yes he's absolutley right. There's a lot of it and it could potentially cause a lot of problems.
Was the example relating to the serissa a good illustration of this? I don't think so. However finding fault with that example doesn't lessen the original statement.
To bend one of Al's statements (which I love by the way) you and the other knowledgeable folk like you are the engine which drives opposite that bad advice. You do good things. Don't make me resurrect my grandma and have her induce some hug therapy on you.
Chris Johnston
Omono
Just trying to get my post count up.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
What was the topic again...?
Oh yea thats right...Is there bad advice on the internet?
Yes.
Oh yea thats right...Is there bad advice on the internet?
Yes.
Anonymous User
Banned
Behr
Yamadori
Good one Mr. Chris...This is just a great opportunity to rid myself of that awful nagging thing at the top of each page that states...
Regards
Behr
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