Baldcypress Poaching

[metro_bonsai]

Hi,

I'm new to bonsai but I have a few baldcypress seedlings, as well as Metasequoia, all collected seedlings sprouted in Spring 2025.

I recently saw this comment on an Instagram post and I think I agree with it, but I am not exactly sure if I buy this arboretum employee's opinion on the effects of poaching on the aethetics of the tree.

"Dug, chopped, and shipped baldcypress are a fascinating trend in American bonsai culture. Sure it's a living statue, but imagine how a poached specimen will fare in a collection long-term... Unlikely attaining as a bonsai the embodiment in visible distress and age a state of nature subject to human fancy. In contrast, crude poaching scars inscribed subsequent growth with arrested development so that-- as form describes a sculpture-- these baldcypress are living testaments to the petty cruelties of ignorant and unfeeling artistry. I don't blame American bonsai, per se, but, as the community grows, it's increasingly clear how too few apprentice in Japan today & honor their cultural practices..."

Any thoughts on this? Does this mean that I should not be moving a baldcypress from a larger pot to a smaller pot without branches or limbs dying?

Thanks,
-fmb

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I believe in conservation and sustainability practices - as in "wise use of".

Removing trees from natural spaces until the space is completely denuded is not "wise use". However if I owned 100 acres of bald cypress swamp, I can guarantee you there would be ways that I could sustainably harvest young bald cypress trees to support horticulture without negatively impacting the space. Separately, it is clear that the person who wrote the statement above doesn't understand the art of bonsai - or apparently topiary, landscaping, or horticulture in general. Any time anyone plants, moves, prunes, shapes or otherwise guides Mother Nature you could argue the impact will be bad... or good depending on the skill of the person doing the work, and their experience.

Here's a good example of "petty cruelties of ignorant and unfeeling artistry"

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Adding to the above statement... people protect what they care about. They care about things that they have a personal connection to. Getting people interested in bonsai, topiary, gardening, landscaping, etc, will create a love for national forests, parks, botanic gardens - and dare I say it - arboretums. The poster referenced above is literally missing the forest because he is focused on a few trees blocking his view.

 

[Michael P]

petty cruelties of ignorant and unfeeling artistry

This phrase suggests that the author is feeling very self righteous.

 

[shohin_branches]

Yes poaching is bad. Classifying all baldcypress bonsai as poached just proves they don't have enough understanding of bonsai to make an informed statement.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

This phrase suggests that the author is feeling very self righteous.

I put it down to looking at the most negative aspect - of anything - and condemning the rule because of the exceptions.

I have seen California junipers irresponsibly taken from the high desert in SoCal because people thought they could flip them for a fast buck. Most died. I condemn the practice. However I have also seen many trees collected sustainably, or for that matter, "saved" from being bulldozed by rampant development. Things are usually not so black and white that you can afford to cast universal condemnation.

 

[stubmle]

Bald cypress grow like weeds. Most of those "poached" are young trees that are rapidly replaced. Not the same as butchering a 1000 year old juniper!

 

[MaciekA]

The two phrases in the original text that are most interesting for me are these:

• "dugged, chopped, and shipped"
• "ignorant unfeeling artistry"

I think if you take a non-seedling tree out of the ground, you should do it with intention and purpose and a well-informed sense of what you (or some artist that will help you) can actually do with it. We want to collect the "good stuff" so that we're not faced with the guilt of disposal when things don't work out or it turns out to be crap material in retrospect.

When you collect something older out of the ground, you should maybe pause and ask yourself whether you're going to take it seriously for many years or if this is just a passing fling. If it's a scattershot approach of "collect 50, keep 1 or 2", and those 1 or 2 aren't even that good because the obsession was more about collecting than it was about bonsai techniques, artistry, culture, nature, etc, then it definitely leaves room for bonsai outsiders to accuse it of being wasteful at best, heartless at worst. Even if there are billions of BCs or lodgepoles left in the woods.

We should as a community be careful what we openly telegraph to the outside world about how the sausage is made. I know this is probably impossible to pull back on, but yards packed full of row after row of collected trees that have hardly any styling on them are not (IMO) a good look.... Especially if (to an outsider looking in at forums/reddit) that's how it always looks, listing after listing, thread after thread, year after year. It would be reasonable for an angry outsider to ask "do any of these even become art or is this all rusty project car hoarding?". Sometimes I think it would be reasonable for an outsider to actually ask if (by internet evidence) nine tenths of this hobby is people attempting to resuscitate nearly-dead trees.

The opposite of "ignorant unfeeling artistry" and a dragnet factory-approach of "dugged chopped and shipped" is something like "informed artistry full of feeling and cultural context, trunks carefully-selected". That's a good goal to have. But unless someone is a professional or an absolute force of nature and a bonsai techniques wizard, then living up to that goal is going to be really F'ing hard with soooo many trees on the go. We can only keep so many trees at once in refinement and do them justice. When I discuss yamadori collecting with beginners, I try to push towards collecting seedlings to gain experience because the "full accounting ethics" (from cradle to grave) of seedlings is less fraught, but also, it's hard to tell that you've filled your grow space with stuff you later don't want, so better to take it easy until one's bonsai eyes catch up.

Another way to put it is that if literally 100% of all dug chopped and shipped trees became absolute stunners on a display table and reminded viewers of their connection to and awe of nature, then the angry arborist might be more likely to celebrate the work. We have non-bonsai people in the PNW who celebrate the trees, even knowing many of them are collected, because their impressions are formed by thoughtful places like the PBM or the Portland Japanese Garden. And not by FB marketplace listings showing chopped trees posed next a beer can, with dozens of unstyled trees in the background. I don't know if there's a solution, but if you're introducing someone to all of this, you can imbue their ethics with something better than the dragnet / rust project car yard approach. And if you are posting pictures of your collection for the world to see, consider how far and wide impressions can go. Thoughtful display goes a long way.

 

[Time Wizard]

What a load of pretentious, meaningless slop that quote is. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[metro_bonsai]

The two phrases in the original text that are most interesting for me are these:

• "dugged, chopped, and shipped"
• "ignorant unfeeling artistry"

I think if you tak

The two phrases in the original text that are most interesting for me are these:

• "dugged, chopped, and shipped"
• "ignorant unfeeling artistry"

I think if you take a non-seedling tree out of the ground, you should do it with intention and purpose and a well-informed sense of what you (or some artist that will help you) can actually do with it. We want to collect the "good stuff" so that we're not faced with the guilt of disposal when things don't work out or it turns out to be crap material in retrospect.

When you collect something older out of the ground, you should maybe pause and ask yourself whether you're going to take it seriously for many years or if this is just a passing fling. If it's a scattershot approach of "collect 50, keep 1 or 2", and those 1 or 2 aren't even that good because the obsession was more about collecting than it was about bonsai techniques, artistry, culture, nature, etc, then it definitely leaves room for bonsai outsiders to accuse it of being wasteful at best, heartless at worst. Even if there are billions of BCs or lodgepoles left in the woods.

We should as a community be careful what we openly telegraph to the outside world about how the sausage is made. I know this is probably impossible to pull back on, but yards packed full of row after row of collected trees that have hardly any styling on them are not (IMO) a good look.... Especially if (to an outsider looking in at forums/reddit) that's how it always looks, listing after listing, thread after thread, year after year. It would be reasonable for an angry outsider to ask "do any of these even become art or is this all rusty project car hoarding?". Sometimes I think it would be reasonable for an outsider to actually ask if (by internet evidence) nine tenths of this hobby is people attempting to resuscitate nearly-dead trees.

The opposite of "ignorant unfeeling artistry" and a dragnet factory-approach of "dugged chopped and shipped" is something like "informed artistry full of feeling and cultural context, trunks carefully-selected". That's a good goal to have. But unless someone is a professional or an absolute force of nature and a bonsai techniques wizard, then living up to that goal is going to be really F'ing hard with soooo many trees on the go. We can only keep so many trees at once in refinement and do them justice. When I discuss yamadori collecting with beginners, I try to push towards collecting seedlings to gain experience because the "full accounting ethics" (from cradle to grave) of seedlings is less fraught, but also, it's hard to tell that you've filled your grow space with stuff you later don't want, so better to take it easy until one's bonsai eyes catch up.

Another way to put it is that if literally 100% of all dug chopped and shipped trees became absolute stunners on a display table and reminded viewers of their connection to and awe of nature, then the angry arborist might be more likely to celebrate the work. We have non-bonsai people in the PNW who celebrate the trees, even knowing many of them are collected, because their impressions are formed by thoughtful places like the PBM or the Portland Japanese Garden. And not by FB marketplace listings showing chopped trees posed next a beer can, with dozens of unstyled trees in the background. I don't know if there's a solution, but if you're introducing someone to all of this, you can imbue their ethics with something better than the dragnet / rust project car yard approach. And if you are posting pictures of your collection for the world to see, consider how far and wide impressions can go. Thoughtful display goes a long way.

Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply. This cleared up my confusion and made for interesting reading. Thank you sir!

 

[rockm]

WTF is a poaching scar? I got reallly confused about what the OP is talking about. Poaching is a verb that describes taking an animal plant or whatever without permission. If that is what is being talked about the. NO ONE HERE OR MOST ANYWHERE ELSE advises taking a tree with out permission. PERIOD. END OF STORY

If “poaching” is being misused grammatically to decsribe a trunk chopped tree then what follows about those trees having no artistic merit is Ignorant bullshit that is totally bereft of any understanding of bonsai or how things actually work.

FWIW the specimen BC bonsai AT THE NATIONAL ARBORETUM’s Bonsai and Penjing Museum are “poached“ (trunk chopped-repeatedly) trees by the OP’s misapplied standard. The esthetics that initially chopped trees have is hardly graceful. However if the tree is handled correctly in training the result is very convincing

So before you form an opinion based on random ignorant fools’ dimwit uninformed Insta and Reddit posts educate yourself by actually going out and seeing WTF you’re talking about

Guy Guidry and the Bald Cypress: An Artist and His Tree Grow Up Together — National Bonsai Foundation

In the world of bonsai, time can be the artist’s greatest collaborator. Few stories illustrate this better than that of Guy Guidry’s bald cypress, one of the original 50 trees that launched the North American Collection at the National Bonsai & Penjing Museum. Donated in 1990 when Guy was in

www.bonsai-nbf.org

 

[rockm]

And as for the “not honoring cultural practices” stuff—where do you think the trunk chopped tree techniques came from? It has long been part of the traditional practices in both Japan and China. There is an entire subcategory of Chinese Penjing that is based on clip and grow (trunk chop) techniques . Photos below From the Japanese collection at the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum. All trees over 80-100 or older and gifts from Japan 50 years ago all trunk chopped over their development. The crabapple has had at least three probably four in its time as bonsai

 

[rockm]

The two phrases in the original text that are most interesting for me are these:

• "dugged, chopped, and shipped"
• "ignorant unfeeling artistry"

I think if you take a non-seedling tree out of the ground, you should do it with intention and purpose and a well-informed sense of what you (or some artist that will help you) can actually do with it. We want to collect the "good stuff" so that we're not faced with the guilt of disposal when things don't work out or it turns out to be crap material in retrospect.

When you collect something older out of the ground, you should maybe pause and ask yourself whether you're going to take it seriously for many years or if this is just a passing fling. If it's a scattershot approach of "collect 50, keep 1 or 2", and those 1 or 2 aren't even that good because the obsession was more about collecting than it was about bonsai techniques, artistry, culture, nature, etc, then it definitely leaves room for bonsai outsiders to accuse it of being wasteful at best, heartless at worst. Even if there are billions of BCs or lodgepoles left in the woods.

We should as a community be careful what we openly telegraph to the outside world about how the sausage is made. I know this is probably impossible to pull back on, but yards packed full of row after row of collected trees that have hardly any styling on them are not (IMO) a good look.... Especially if (to an outsider looking in at forums/reddit) that's how it always looks, listing after listing, thread after thread, year after year. It would be reasonable for an angry outsider to ask "do any of these even become art or is this all rusty project car hoarding?". Sometimes I think it would be reasonable for an outsider to actually ask if (by internet evidence) nine tenths of this hobby is people attempting to resuscitate nearly-dead trees.

The opposite of "ignorant unfeeling artistry" and a dragnet factory-approach of "dugged chopped and shipped" is something like "informed artistry full of feeling and cultural context, trunks carefully-selected". That's a good goal to have. But unless someone is a professional or an absolute force of nature and a bonsai techniques wizard, then living up to that goal is going to be really F'ing hard with soooo many trees on the go. We can only keep so many trees at once in refinement and do them justice. When I discuss yamadori collecting with beginners, I try to push towards collecting seedlings to gain experience because the "full accounting ethics" (from cradle to grave) of seedlings is less fraught, but also, it's hard to tell that you've filled your grow space with stuff you later don't want, so better to take it easy until one's bonsai eyes catch up.

Another way to put it is that if literally 100% of all dug chopped and shipped trees became absolute stunners on a display table and reminded viewers of their connection to and awe of nature, then the angry arborist might be more likely to celebrate the work. We have non-bonsai people in the PNW who celebrate the trees, even knowing many of them are collected, because their impressions are formed by thoughtful places like the PBM or the Portland Japanese Garden. And not by FB marketplace listings showing chopped trees posed next a beer can, with dozens of unstyled trees in the background. I don't know if there's a solution, but if you're introducing someone to all of this, you can imbue their ethics with something better than the dragnet / rust project car yard approach. And if you are posting pictures of your collection for the world to see, consider how far and wide impressions can go. Thoughtful display goes a long way.

This is exactly why I don’t recommend collecting for beginners. They see only “free trees” in the wild. They generally dig up a dozen or more and kill them.

As said attentive sympathetic collecting is fine. The scramble for “free trees” is not either. Same might be said for extremely high end collecting where the question of “should I collect it” becomes difficult just because you can doesn’t mean you should…

 

[shohin_branches]

This is exactly why I don’t recommend collecting for beginners. They see only “free trees” in the wild. They generally dig up a dozen or more and kill them.

As said attentive sympathetic collecting is fine. The scramble for “free trees” is not either. Same might be said for extremely high end collecting where the question of “should I collect it” becomes difficult just because you can doesn’t mean you should…

That's why every spring our club digs invasive burning bush from the woods of the botanical gardens. It gives people a chance to practice collecting and it satisfies the "free trees" urge for beginners with a bunch of noxious invasives. Even if every dug up tree dies, that's kinda the goal.

 

[The Barber]

Poaching infers taking without a permit, ie. Hunting deer on land without a permit or permission to hunt there, hunting without a hunting license, or just unlawfully taking something. In my opinion at least.

I get the feeling they think we also hurt the trees and torture them after and that they have human feelings.