Best soil for developing trees?

[KennedyMarx]

Pine bark holds too much moisture.

Commercial nurseries use it because 1) it's cheap, And 2) inexperienced workers are apt to water ( or NOT WATER) when the trees need it. So, they're less likely to lose a tree due to steering neglect. It's NOT for the health of the tree or to develop nebari. Their goal is to keep the tree alive until it sells.

You should try going pure inorganic and see how much better it performed on at least a couple trees.

One last thought: where in the world is the lushest forests? Hawaii. And what is its soil? Inorganic lava and pumice.

I have most of my ficus in completely inorganic mixes. They do great. I left the pine bark in the juniper soil thinking that it would help develop the mycorrhizae that I dosed them with upon repotting. Plus it has a high CEC. Maybe I'll repot a couple of these other juniper cuttings in pumice, turface, and akadama just to compare the growth with the pumice/turface/bark mix.

Twenty five percent sounds like a lot of bark, but the soil doesn't look like there's actually that much in it. I chalk this up to the pumice and turface particle size being smaller than the bark, which fluffed up more in the cups when measured and added in.

 

[Adair M]

Again, pine bark suppresses the mycorrhizae. It likes to be dry rather than wet. Pine bark will stay wet, and get slimy.

You should see the root systems at Boon's. Completely white with the mycorrhizae.

In fact, he posted on his facebook page a tree that I was in the process of repotting at the Intensive in January. It had been "half bare rooted" the previous year, and this year it was getting the other half bare rooted. The JBP was in an Anderson flat. When I lifted it out, the rootball on the old soil was black/brown. The rootball in the Boon Mix was white, filled with fibrous mycorrhizae. The old soil had virtually no mycorrhizae. And it was composed of grit with pine bark.

So, I finished the job, getting rid of all the old grit/pine bark, repotted into a proper bonsai pot with Boon Mix.

Look: I have spent thousands of dollars travelling from the East Coast to the West Coast to study with Boon over the past couple years. I'm telling you, for FREE, some of the information I've learned.

You have a choice: Keep doing what you've been doing. Or do it right.

 

[FrankP999]

Look: I have spent thousands of dollars travelling from the East Coast to the West Coast to study with Boon over the past couple years. I'm telling you, for FREE, some of the information I've learned.

Adair, I certainly appreciate your sharing what you learned from Boon THANKS

Frank

 

[KennedyMarx]

I respect your advice Adair. And I respect Boon's teachings (just watched his scale junipers DVD again yesterday). But trying to argue that a mix with a small amount of bark is going to result in a terrible root system is a little much I think. The itoigawa I just got from Evergreen Gardenworks was very healthy with a strong root ball. His nursery mix for most of his plants is almost half bark.

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/soils.htm

I'm not even using that much bark. And half of this mix is pumice. It's not going to stay too wet.

 

[Adair M]

You can lead a horse to water...

 

[Poink88]

8*1=8
2*4=8
2*2*2=8
10-2=8
5+3=8
16/2=8
1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1=8
(25-1)/3=8
etc.
etc.
etc.


Ideal soil mix is almost like this.

I am sure Boon's mix is great. Walter Pall's is Great. Akadama is great. Pumice is great.

As many successful user's are there of any of these (and countless other mix)...there are proportionate amount of failures using the same mix.

 

[Adair M]

Kennedy,

This is my last word on this matter:

I have been doing bonsai for over 40 years. I had a lot of bad habits, or poor bonsai techniques that I had been taught in the past. Working with Boon, I have overcome them, and my bonsai are now progressing like never before.

Since I've been studying with Boon, one of the things I've learned is the importance of the soil mix for bonsai. Unfortunately, most of us have paid too little attention to it. But if you want your bonsai to thrive and develop, getting the right soil is paramount.

About mycorrhizae: You don't have to inoculate soil with it. It's in the air we breathe. It will grow IF THE CONDITIONS ARE RIGHT. If the soil in your bonsai doesn't have any, it doesn't mean there's no mycorrhizae, it means the conditions aren't right! Which translates into: bad bonsai soil.

About Brett's soil: He's a nurseryman. Sure, he's growing bonsai stock. But he's got hundreds if not thousands of trees in pots. (Make that nursery cans.) He can't monitor each pot daily. And it would be prohibitively expensive for him to use Boon Mix in all those pots. So, he does the best he can given the constraints he has to work under.

But that doesn't mean you can't do better!

You said yourself your ficus do great in inorganic soil.

You say you've got Boon's DVDs. If you're not going to do what they say to do, why did you buy them?

Sorry if I'm coming on strong, but really... inorganic is the way to go. I wish I had known about this 40 years ago! The roots don't get nutrients from the soil, the soil is there to provide structure for the root system. They get the nutrients from the fertilizer we give them.

Ok. I'm done.

 

[armetisius]

another soil thread

Once again soil is like a pot of jambalaya or gumbo;
line up ten cooks and you will get 30 recipes.
Which is the right one? They are all good and
all bad but each fits the cook's need at the time
given what they have to work with at that moment.

 

[markyscott]

Interesting too... that layer is almost three feet thick. Seven feet of akadama and four feet of kanuma. I wonder where the lava and pumice is?

Small zones of remnant volcanics in akadama.

 

[Eric Group]

Kennedy,

This is my last word on this matter:

I have been doing bonsai for over 40 years. I had a lot of bad habits, or poor bonsai techniques that I had been taught in the past. Working with Boon, I have overcome them, and my bonsai are now progressing like never before.

Since I've been studying with Boon, one of the things I've learned is the importance of the soil mix for bonsai. Unfortunately, most of us have paid too little attention to it. But if you want your bonsai to thrive and develop, getting the right soil is paramount.

About mycorrhizae: You don't have to inoculate soil with it. It's in the air we breathe. It will grow IF THE CONDITIONS ARE RIGHT. If the soil in your bonsai doesn't have any, it doesn't mean there's no mycorrhizae, it means the conditions aren't right! Which translates into: bad bonsai soil.

About Brett's soil: He's a nurseryman. Sure, he's growing bonsai stock. But he's got hundreds if not thousands of trees in pots. (Make that nursery cans.) He can't monitor each pot daily. And it would be prohibitively expensive for him to use Boon Mix in all those pots. So, he does the best he can given the constraints he has to work under.

But that doesn't mean you can't do better!

You said yourself your ficus do great in inorganic soil.

You say you've got Boon's DVDs. If you're not going to do what they say to do, why did you buy them?

Sorry if I'm coming on strong, but really... inorganic is the way to go. I wish I had known about this 40 years ago! The roots don't get nutrients from the soil, the soil is there to provide structure for the root system. They get the nutrients from the fertilizer we give them.

Ok. I'm done.

I appreciate where you are coming from, and I think we all appreciate your willingness to share knowledge you have paid money to learn. That is a very hard stance you are taking however, and I think the results of people who have tried different soils and had success with mixes that have a certain amount of organic components will always lead people to question the "you should only use 100% inorganic soil" argument. Just recently there was a post on Walter Pall's blog linked in the general discussion forum and while he does promote a MOSTLY inorganic mix it, it seems that he is basically saying (and my experiences would back this up for me as well) that the watering of your trees is the most important factor in the end.

As you yourself say Aidair, the nurseries use more organic soils to stave off plant deaths due to under watering. I think using an all inorganic mix CAN lead to fantastic results... IF the person using that mix has time to water their plants 3-4+ times a day during the heat of the summer. (Especially in warmer locales like mine where it can get to 105 degrees and above in the summer..). The fact that many of us have jobs outside of the plant/ bonsai industry and cannot watch our trees constantly and water them 4 times a day means a 100% inorganic soil is comparable to a guaranteed death sentence! I am speaking for experience here as I lost a bunch of trees years ago when I was working towards a more inorganic mix and we had a nasty heat spell two summers in a row where it stayed above 110 for like two weeks straight during the summer. I even had an automated sprinkler system at the time, and still lost trees each year. This past summer, we had a few days where temps soared past 100, and I didn't lose a single tree. Most of my trees currently are in the ground, in nursery cans/ nursery mixes or in my own home made bonsai mix that is probably 15-20% organic or more depending on the type of tree. I am not arguing my mix is best, or that it is better than yours, just that it works well FOR ME I think... I am always open to trying to improve what I use and that was the impetus for creating this thread, but i have found that pure inorganic mixes won't work well for me in this heat while I am still working a full time job. Perhaps when I am retired I will be able to move more in that direction. Your praise of Boon, his teachings and his Bonsai mix has certainly caught my interest though, and I am going to do a little research to see what I can learn about him and his mixes on my own, as I certainly can't afford to travel across the country to take classes with him the way you have.

Thanks for the input, I think we all appreciate it- and believe me I wish I could spend more time working on Bonsai than I can right now. As it is, if I spend any more time working with plants outside of work, my wife and kids may well disown me! I am missing an opportunity RIGHT NOW to meet with some local friends to work on some trees because I had to watch my baby (who is currently feeling a little sick and asleep on daddy's chest while I type this) so my wife could run some errands... Again, life and priorities are inhibiting my bonsai development! LOL

 

[coh]

Arguing about this stuff is like arguing about religion (or politics). It's definitely not "one size fits all", and anyone who tries to make it that way ("Keep doing what you've been doing. Or do it right") loses credibility in my opinion.

Chris

 

[Adair M]

So, Eric, you entitled this thread, "what is the best soil mix", right?

Then you go on to say that what you are using is the best for you because you can't water when your trees need it.

Why did you even start this thread if you don't want to implement a change?

I started going to Boon's because I wanted to improve. I was told to go with an open mind, and pretend that I didn't have 35 years of bonsai experience. I've learned many things that completely changed the way I do bonsai.

Let me rephrase what I said before.

If you are happy with your current results, don't change a thing. If, however, you want to get better results, some things will have to change.

I have shared with you the soil mix that someone who has worked on some of the finest trees in Japan uses. The choice is yours.

Is that more credible?

 

[Smoke]

Small zones of remnant volcanics in akadama.

Thats a good picture, I wonder at what level in the soil that is. Deeper or shallower, I would guess pretty deep, closer to huyga or kanuma.

 

[Smoke]

Sorry if I'm coming on strong, but really... inorganic is the way to go. I wish I had known about this 40 years ago! The roots don't get nutrients from the soil, the soil is there to provide structure for the root system. They get the nutrients from the fertilizer we give them.

Ok. I'm done.

Why use three components?

Why not just use straight pumice or straight lava and leave out the akadama which tends to be expensive?

Since your soil is not there for nutrient enrichment, it seems that straight pumice would do an adaquate job?

Roots do not need soil for structure, so please explain what this means. I repot tridents yearly and cut off as much as 1 1/2 inches of roots that just collect around the pot with absolutely no soil, of course I do not put soil in the bottom of my pots unless it is deeper and I need to stand the tree up. One year is 2009 and one year is 2014

 

[Adair M]

Let me clarify one more minor detail:

In Japan, they don't use "Boon's Mix". His mix is made up of the components he can get here in the USA, that comes as close as possible to the mix they use in Japan.

In Japan, they use a component they call "river sand". Their river sand is different than ours. They are a volcanic country. So Boon substituted lava rock for "river sand".

So , Dario, you have a point. The actual components can be changed.

However, none of the components are organic.

 

[tmpgh]

But the question remains, why multiple components if the soil is not there to feed the tree? Wouldn't one inorganic component suit?

 

[Adair M]

Why three when one will do?

It's true, many in Japan just use straight akadama. Especially deciduous. But as Smoke stated, it's expensive here. I grow my azalea in straight kanuma.

Pumice is light weight. If used straight, rain and wind tend to knock it out of the pot.

Lava is heavier.

One thing these have in common is that they are rounded. Which makes for great drainage and air flow. Particle shape is important.

By the way, I used to use granite grit. It's heavy. And sharp. So, it used to pack down. Like a gravel road. I don't use it anymore, but I would use it before using pine bark.

When I said "structure", Smoke, I meant that the roots anchor the tree into the soil. They do uptake water and nutrients.

Last weekend, I was repotting pines at Plant City Bonsai. They had pumice but ran out of lava. So, the mix I used was akadama and pumice. No pine bark.

There is a commercial pre-mix called "Clay King" that is basically Boon Mix. Good stuff if you can find it.

Oh... one MORE reason for inorganic soil: For JBP, we want to control when fertilizer is present. We want to fertilizer heavily in the spring to get those spring candles strong and healthy, but we want to remove the fertilizer when we decandle in early summer. Since water runs through inorganic soil, it will wash away unwanted fertilizer. Pine bark will hold it in.

 

[Eric Group]

I appreciate where you are coming from, and I think we all appreciate your willingness to share knowledge you have paid money to learn. That is a very hard stance you are taking however, and I think the results of people who have tried different soils and had success with mixes that have a certain amount of organic components will always lead people to question the "you should only use 100% inorganic soil" argument. Just recently there was a post on Walter Pall's blog linked in the general discussion forum and while he does promote a MOSTLY inorganic mix it, it seems that he is basically saying (and my experiences would back this up for me as well) that the watering of your trees is the most important factor in the end.

As you yourself say Aidair, the nurseries use more organic soils to stave off plant deaths due to under watering. I think using an all inorganic mix CAN lead to fantastic results... IF the person using that mix has time to water their plants 3-4+ times a day during the heat of the summer. (Especially in warmer locales like mine where it can get to 105 degrees and above in the summer..). The fact that many of us have jobs outside of the plant/ bonsai industry and cannot watch our trees constantly and water them 4 times a day means a 100% inorganic soil is comparable to a guaranteed death sentence! I am speaking for experience here as I lost a bunch of trees years ago when I was working towards a more inorganic mix and we had a nasty heat spell two summers in a row where it stayed above 110 for like two weeks straight during the summer. I even had an automated sprinkler system at the time, and still lost trees each year. This past summer, we had a few days where temps soared past 100, and I didn't lose a single tree. Most of my trees currently are in the ground, in nursery cans/ nursery mixes or in my own home made bonsai mix that is probably 15-20% organic or more depending on the type of tree. I am not arguing my mix is best, or that it is better than yours, just that it works well FOR ME I think... I am always open to trying to improve what I use and that was the impetus for creating this thread, but i have found that pure inorganic mixes won't work well for me in this heat while I am still working a full time job. Perhaps when I am retired I will be able to move more in that direction. Your praise of Boon, his teachings and his Bonsai mix has certainly caught my interest though, and I am going to do a little research to see what I can learn about him and his mixes on my own, as I certainly can't afford to travel across the country to take classes with him the way you have.

Thanks for the input, I think we all appreciate it- and believe me I wish I could spend more time working on Bonsai than I can right now. As it is, if I spend any more time working with plants outside of work, my wife and kids may well disown me! I am missing an opportunity RIGHT NOW to meet with some local friends to work on some trees because I had to watch my baby (who is currently feeling a little sick and asleep on daddy's chest while I type this) so my wife could run some errands... Again, life and priorities are inhibiting my bonsai development! LOL

So, Eric, you entitled this thread, "what is the best soil mix", right?

Then you go on to say that what you are using is the best for you because you can't water when your trees need it.

Why did you even start this thread if you don't want to implement a change?

I started going to Boon's because I wanted to improve. I was told to go with an open mind, and pretend that I didn't have 35 years of bonsai experience. I've learned many things that completely changed the way I do bonsai.

Let me rephrase what I said before.

If you are happy with your current results, don't change a thing. If, however, you want to get better results, some things will have to change.

I have shared with you the soil mix that someone who has worked on some of the finest trees in Japan uses. The choice is yours.

Is that more credible?

I said in the post I just made "... I am always open to trying to improve what I use and that was the impetus for creating this thread"... I also basically said your posts were going to make me take a look at what comprises Boon's mix to see if it is something I could try... I thanked you multiple times for sharing your perspective and said I can see where you are coming from... But I still feel like your post above was an attempt make me seem like I was somehow slandering your point of view when that wasn't what I did at all. the point of my last post was simply to give you a personal example of why your comments stating that anybody who didn't use the soil mix you use was "wrong", may not have been the best wording. Yes, that is coming on a bit too hard and while I did start this thread simply to see what everybody else uses and will use some of the comments here to help me improve my own mixes... I was merely trying to tell you why some people might not be "wrong" for using organic ingredients in their mix. Just because I started the thread to see what others use, it doesn't mean I cannot comment on what people post... Does it? I don't understand why people cannot seem to calmly discuss slightly differing opinions on the Internet without trying to turn it into an argument...

Thanks again for your comments, as I said before- I am surely going to take a look at Boon's mix after your glowing reviews!

 

[coh]

So, Eric, you entitled this thread, "what is the best soil mix", right?

Then you go on to say that what you are using is the best for you because you can't water when your trees need it.

Why did you even start this thread if you don't want to implement a change?

I started going to Boon's because I wanted to improve. I was told to go with an open mind, and pretend that I didn't have 35 years of bonsai experience. I've learned many things that completely changed the way I do bonsai.

Let me rephrase what I said before.

If you are happy with your current results, don't change a thing. If, however, you want to get better results, some things will have to change.

I have shared with you the soil mix that someone who has worked on some of the finest trees in Japan uses. The choice is yours.

Is that more credible?

Yes...acknowledging that your (or whatever) method isn't necessarily the best for everyone in every situation adds a lot of credibility in my book. Whether that matters to anyone else is another issue. Actually, why it really matters to me is a good question as well. It might be that I'm just getting antsy waiting for this endless winter to...end.

Anyway, based on what you've written, it seems like you've been working with Boon for about 5 years. I'm sure in that time you've changed a lot more about your approach to bonsai than just the soil mix. You've probably developed better repotting (root work) skills, changed your fertilizing practices, learned how much top work can be done on what tree at what time, and many other things. So how much of the improvement in your results is due to the soil, and how much is due to other components?

If someone came into my yard this spring and repotted all my trees into "boon mix", would my results suddenly be better? Maybe...anyone willing to make the trip (and bring the soil) to try the experiment?

Actually, I have acquired enough lava, pumice and akadama to do some investigations over the next few years, and I'm looking forward to seeing what happens.

As others have said, thanks for sharing your experiences and point of view.

Chris

Edit to add - to Eric's original point...for trees that I'm "growing out" (i.e. for trunk size) I generally use something similar to a standard nursery mix. It varies but usually includes peat, bark, perlite as a base. I'll often add more perlite and/or turface and sometimes potting soil, depending on the species. The main reason I do this is for cost, it's much cheaper to fill a 10+ gallon pot with this stuff than with boon mix. As trees move from the trunk development stage into smaller pots for finer development, I transition gradually toward a more standard bonsai soil.

 

[Poink88]

I too thank you Adair M.

Coh/Chris, as mentioned, changing/mixing things a bit can totally change how a single component work. My two main ingredients are both "NOT GOOD" components by themselves...Turface and potting soil but together, I found them to work very well FOR ME.