Bonsai Attrition Rate

[bonsai barry]

All recreational activities, hobbies, etc. have a certain attrition rate when people lose interest after their initial flush of enthusiasm. I'm sure bonsai does, too. Are there backyards with shelves of dead trees hidden by overgrown weeds? I don't have much association with other bonsai enthusiasts so perhaps someone with more perspective can answer this question. Do you think bonsai has a higher or lower attrition rate than other activities such as collecting coins or playing the piano, or frisbee golf, or raising pot bellied pigs, etc. Do bonsai clubs have a high turn over rate of new members?

 

[Anthony]

Bonsai Barry,

our Bonsai Society started off with over 200 members, today it is down to a small handful, and that handful is mostly housewives, the men have left or gone dormant.
Once the responsibility of all that care set in, and no fast results or fame bloomed,well??????

Time period was 1993 to today.

What also speeded up the sunken ship, was a high resistance to new information, not inviting instructors from overseas and an over abundance of wiring ladders. [ no understanding that the back branch gives the 3d effect.]

Perhaps when the older heads stepdown, new ideas will flow once again.
Good Day.
Anthony

 

[lordy]

I am faced with this problem in our club too. 20 yrs ago there were grizzled vets who had been in the hobby for decades with beautiful trees to show for it. Now we have an ever-changing group of new faces who are around for a couple years, then fade away. I think there may be more things to occupy people's time nowadays, with the advent of the WWW, etc.
Another thing that may exacerbate the attrition rate in bonsai vs. coins or stamps, for example, is that while you can put coins or stamps away and take a break for a while, trees take constant and perpetual care and attention. It truly is a commitment.

 

[bonsai barry]

Bonsai Barry,

our Bonsai Society started off with over 200 members, today it is down to a small handful, and that handful is mostly housewives, the men have left or gone dormant.
Once the responsibility of all that care set in, and no fast results or fame bloomed,well??????

Time period was 1993 to today.

What also speeded up the sunken ship, was a high resistance to new information, not inviting instructors from overseas and an over abundance of wiring ladders. [ no understanding that the back branch gives the 3d effect.]

Perhaps when the older heads stepdown, new ideas will flow once again.
Good Day.
Anthony

Interesting that your main group of people is "housewives" I have always assumed that most clubs were made up of men.

 

[Poink88]

Being new, I don't know but looking at our local club...it is mostly comprised or really old people. I am actually one of the youngest. The old folks are really dedicated though...even when hurting and can hardly move, they volunteer for almost anything and everything. With family commitments, I can hardly attend the meetings. I probably attended 5 out of possibly 20+ meetings and workshops last year and have yet to attend one this year.

These folks are really supportive too, totally different mood vs forums (like here sometimes). They celebrate accomplishments...big & small and try to continue learning. I also noticed that as old and how seasoned some are in bonsai, they are still learning a few stuff that I thought/consider basic bonsai knowledge. Reinforcing my belief that it is not the years of experience that only matter.

Gender wise, IIRC I believe ours is almost an even split but not sure. Based on my limited observation...our current membership is stable and solid...not too many new faces but after they joined, they are there.

For me (true for all my hobbies)...it is the challenge that keeps me interested. So far bonsai kept me as interested on it since day one...a very good sign since no other hobby had this effect on me before. Most that I learned how to do well peaked then dropped...almost free fall to nothing after. I think I am the type of person who enjoy "the hunt" more than the actual bounty after. To that, I do not know how long I will be doing bonsai...I really hope 'till I physically cannot anymore...

 

[yenling83]

I think in the U.S. it's slightly higher than most hobbies and I believe the reason being is because there is so much bad information out there. It's easy to get frustrated when your learning how to do something the wrong way.

 

[evmibo]

How can we really know for sure without actually keeping track of everyone's backyard, or where ever their trees reside..? Although it may be a strong sign, just because someone quits going to local meetings doesn't mean they've quit the hobby. That being said, I would hypothesize that the rate is higher here in the states due to sheer population size (among other things).

 

[AboveBeyond]

I'm in the same boat as Dario. I wished there were more younger people.

 

[rockm]

the best way to get younger members is to GO OUT AND GET THEM

Seriously, you want to change the club--get in a leadership position in one and act on your ideas to attract younger members. Letting the old guys run things all the time basically means they're doing it their way (for better or worse, or in between).

Also, don't make it logistically hard to join--as I've seen repeatedly happen with some clubs--

 

[nip]

I feel the same way. I've been involved for over 15 years, and even now that I am approaching my 30s i still find myself 30 years younger than the other enthusiasts at any event I attend. Nothing wrong with that, but the generation gap does keep me from being highly active in clubs.

Bonsai is simply not an activity that attracts youth. And younger folks typically have much more going on in their lives, building careers, raising kids, etc... The recent influx of young "masters" and younger American's studying in Japan is encouraging though.

The barrier to entry is deceptively low, for any age. I would compare the bonsai attrition to the attrition of people on a diet... people are attracted to the idea of losing weight, just as people are attracted to cool little bonsai trees... but once the elements of time, patience, dedication, knowledge, sacrifice, etc are realized... they give up. It's not that they are no longer intrigued about bonsai, they just become aware of the effort/difficulty involved to grow quality trees.

it is no more evident then on forums... people join and ask 100 questions in a month, then vanish.

I'm in the same boat as Dario. I wished there were more younger people.

 

[PaulH]

I belong to three local clubs and each is different but the one thing in common is a lot of turnover in new members. Bonsai can be fascinating and mysterious to newcomers and I think that a lot of beginners join clubs to discover that the mystery is simply a lot of study, hard work and devotion to our trees. I think a lot of new members don't last because they aren't willing or able to make the commitment of time and money that good bonsai requires. It seems that of the 5 or 10 new members that join each year we're lucky if one lasts five years. I don't have a problem with that since I'm somewhat of a fanatic about bonsai the club is more fun if its filled with other fanatics.
Another factor in clubs is simply aging out of long time members. I joined my first club in 1980 and there are 6 of us left in the club from that time. One challenge to all clubs is to see that the bonsai belonging to these aging members are kept healthy and hopefully passed on to someone else who will care for them properly. Too often the trees pass away with their owners.
One thing that is consistent in The clubs I belong to is that a little less than half the members have quality bonsai collections. Not to criticize those who don't.. their motivation is different. Some just like the social aspect. Some are happy just dabbling with sticks in pots and and stuff that can never be really good bonsai; its enough for them just keeping the plants growing and healthy.
Each club has a different and unique character, which is why I belong to three clubs. Quite often I see someone leave one club after a short time and later show up at one of the others and become productive, long - time members if they find what they're looking for there.
One last observation about attracting new club members. Clubs that offer regular beginner classes and workshops get the most new members. But as I've said, few of these last long.

 

[Dirty Nails]

One last observation about attracting new club members. Clubs that offer regular beginner classes and workshops get the most new members. But as I've said, few of these last long.

When I decided 4 years ago to start Bonsai I joined a club. Went to meetings etc... for about a year. The problem was that most of the members were:

1. Rich (which I am not)
2. Been doing it a long time (so they didn't discuss "beginners topics")
3. Had big collections of NICE trees many being cared for by visiting artists. (Lots of fun to look at and visit gardens but hard for a noob to relate)

So I left the club but kept up the Bonsai on my own. reading books and trolling boards for info. Which is why I may ask obtuse questions at times. There is a lot of conflicting information out there and I would have stuck with the club if there had been more workshops and discussion of beginning topics esp. Bonsai for our local climate etc.... But I can understand how these lifers get tired of repeating themselves to noobs for 30 years.

 

[Poink88]

Dirty Nails,

Though I missed most of the meetings, I always receive a copy of the meeting journal (w/ pics) so I can read what happened and slap myself for what I missed.

One things that I learned our club do annually is dedicate a meeting to discuss how to do bonsai on the cheap. Options are laid out for everyone to choose which they want to try. From tree collecting, propagation, cheap nursery options, training pots, wires, soil, fertilizer, etc.

Most noob questions are encouraged every meeting...either during the informal start or during the meeting itself. Like online...there are differing opinions or means to do things also so be prepared for those as well.

I did notice that a big chunk of the group (maybe 30%?) are there primarily to socialize & meet old friends...rather than for bonsai.

 

[AboveBeyond]

I feel the same way. I've been involved for over 15 years, and even now that I am approaching my 30s i still find myself 30 years younger than the other enthusiasts at any event I attend. Nothing wrong with that, but the generation gap does keep me from being highly active in clubs.

Bonsai is simply not an activity that attracts youth. And younger folks typically have much more going on in their lives, building careers, raising kids, etc... The recent influx of young "masters" and younger American's studying in Japan is encouraging though.

The barrier to entry is deceptively low, for any age. I would compare the bonsai attrition to the attrition of people on a diet... people are attracted to the idea of losing weight, just as people are attracted to cool little bonsai trees... but once the elements of time, patience, dedication, knowledge, sacrifice, etc are realized... they give up. It's not that they are no longer intrigued about bonsai, they just become aware of the effort/difficulty involved to grow quality trees.

it is no more evident then on forums... people join and ask 100 questions in a month, then vanish.

For myself, I find that this is the opposite. Learning all the intricities about bonsai makes it's more interesting and worthwhile for me.

 

[october]

I think with any hobby and with anyone, there may be a less enthusiastic period here and there. I believe that is only normal. For me, the more I learned about bonsai, the more interested I became. When I started learning about the aethetic principles, guidelines, rules etc.. It was like a whole new world of interest had opened up.

I have noticed that there has been more young people at the nusery taking workshops and classes. Also, many of them seem enthusiastic. Such as taking more than one class or commiting to a series of classes.

There is one thing I notice..When the explanation of bonsai gets a little more involved.. Such as how they are going to have to care for the trees, how they cannot just go on vacation and leave the tree. You can tell by their faces that some are surprised and almost seem like their attitude is ya right, I don't think so. When they further question this, I usually tell them.. You would not leave a pet alone with no food or water while you go on vacation. Trees are living things, like pets.

Rob

 

[berobinson82]

For myself, I find that this is the opposite. Learning all the intricities about bonsai makes it's more interesting and worthwhile for me.

Preaching to the choir...

As a younger member of the club (30), here's what I noticed.

To grow a club and maintain interest, you have to have a lot of beginner activities and topics at the meetings. Those activities and topics are not going to be very interesting to long-time members. And without long-term members, you have no club.

Speakers energize the club. Folks come back when Roy or Ryan comes to town. That energy spreads to the neophytes and further excites them.

The small gatherings of like-minded people working on bonsai outside of the club is the most fun times I have with the group. Inviting people to work on trees seems to give them the idea that bonsai isn't about sitting in a stuffy room in the community room of the nursing home; rather it's the intimate moments you share with your trees and friends who also appreciate miniature nature.

I'm very friendly and helpful to brand new faces, especially younger ones. I offer them helpful links and steer them to this forum. Once they realize the commitment of time and money, most of them discover it's not for them. And good! Young people like trying new things and very few hobbies stick. They are discovering themselves still. It wasn't exactly the most enticing of clubs to join at 28 seeing the median age around 60. We have a 92 year old in our club!

The new folks that attend an event early seem to stay interested longer. I'm hoping to take a couple new folks up to the PBA event.

And then we have the lonely 17 year old kid who's leaving for school soon. He just gets it. He might be a somebody one day.

It takes a different kind of person to do this, it seems... You guys and gals are all nuts. Attrition happens in every hobby. This one is no different. It weeds out the half-hearted.

 

[october]

Bonsai is like many things in life. What you put into it is usually what you get out of it. For example fitness. If you workout and train hard and watch what you eat, you see great results in the way you look and feel. However, like bonsai, exercise and training must be based on knowledgeable programs. Working hard in the wrong direction from misguided information will not yield good results. It is just like the people you see on the treadmill, month after month, sometimes year after year. They appear to look no different. Most likely because their energy is going towards the wrong things or they refuse to change and learn new things. Like bonsai, why are people after years in bonsai still dealing with and think sticks in pots are bonsai. Misguided information and/or an unwillingness to learn how to improve their trees.

Rob

 

[fourteener]

We've been doing a beginner's class through community ed here in our 80,000 member community. There are a couple of us fully committed to the hobby, a couple who are but we never see them. 5-6 people who would give up if....

We'd like to grow a bonsai culture here, but it does get frustrating to explain the same stuff over and over again to a crop of new people who seem to just give up on it. At some point I feel like just telling to come over to my place on monday nights in the summer if your interested.

We do have a once a month meeting at a local nursery. We have the typical problem of planning. Go to effort and plan something only to have no one show up. Decide to just bring a few trees and hang out, 10 people show up and seem to wonder why this isn't more organized...AHHHHHHHH!!

In the end bonsai is a low-adrenaline, instant-gratification-barren hobby. In the class we teach, someone always brings up the fact that we keep saying "Years." It will always have more people reject it than grab hold of it. Sometimes I don't know to care if people are interested or not. It seems nine out of ten are not interested after a year or two.

In the end people have to be interested in horticulture and design. Lack of interest or lack of willingness to learn both will bring people to the end of interest. Fair enough... who of us hasn't given up on a hobby right! I found one I really love at this point!!

 

[Anthony]

Well if you want to purchase something to show off, when socializing, then you have to have some amount of funding. However, I never really saw too many of those types at the learning or exhibition situations.
You would also need trained gardeners to keep the trees healthy.

Most folk can't handle long term situations that don't normally show results for up to and past 10 years. Seen all those you can have a Bonsai in around 5 years [ once you have had the experience of about 10 years growing trees.]

We ended up with housewives because they like cute trees in cute pots with cute things stuck on them.

Most of the guys just drifted back into fishing, hunting and some form of martial arts or sports.
Or just took up orchids, just a hose down once in a while, bird mess gives all the fertilizer.

The backbone of our island is formed from folk not originally having time for hobbies. Hobbies, by the way, are a very English past time, taught to one from very young.
Locals study get a job.

Bonsai here will go back to hidden backyards of the diehards and if it is managed a Bonsai Museum.
Good Evening.
Anthony

* Not that I mind, I grew up with the training that you don't need company to do.

 

[Zach Smith]

This is a really good topic. I see a lot of common threads running through the discussion, and some things I didn't expect. Bonsai is an easy but difficult hobby/art/pastime. It's easy to plant a tree or shrub in a container, water and pinch and prune it, but tough to keep that up if you also have a full-time job and family life. Still, it can be done.

Most of the clubs I've either belonged to or visited are comprised mostly of older men. But it is gratifying to see women get involved, and I think that may be happening more and more. (As an aside, whenever a new young talent like Ryan Neil shows up the hobby collectively goes breathless, which I suppose it should; no one ever said to me, "Hey, have you heard of that new bonsai artist Joe Blow? Man, he is so knowledgeable and talented and is he is SO OLD!)

Any art form like bonsai would certainly have a high attrition rate. While unfortunate, I think it's one of the things that makes bonsai so special. If anyone could do it superlatively with little effort or input or time, why would it even be worth doing?

Zach